To My Fellow ML'ers

[davelin]

Hello all. There's been a lot of posts and newer players coming through who are asking all sorts of advice which I think is great and all because I was in that camp only like 8 months ago. But I'll let you guys in on something. No good poker player just got good by spending a lot of time posting hands and following the advice in a rote-like way. All good poker players got there because they spent a lot of time THINKING about poker.

We all know about what they say about giving a man a fish versus teaching him how to fish (ironic given the game but anyways). To all my new friends here, we want to teach you how to fish, not just give you fish. Posting hands and just reading the advice for it's own sake --> giving fish. Reading other hands and advice and thinking about the game on your own --> teaching you how to fish. And I think every single person here wants to be taught how to fish. So to newer players, if you're serious about this game, please read and think deeply about this game.

But we veterans have a responsibility too. I admit sometimes I fall into the "Raise pre-flop, call flop, fold turn" line of advice-giving which doesn't help anyone. So if I'm going to implore you guys to think about the game, then I need to do my part and help teach you how to fish. So I'll do my best to explain my thinking and not give just rote one-liners.

There has been a lot of discussion and post on how to improve this board and I think this is the simplest way, by escalating everyone's skill about the game as effective as possible. And the most effective way to do this is for newer players to think about the game and for veterans to show you their thinking.

[UncleSalty]

Short, sweet, to the point. This post should be bumped at least once a week. Nice job. And I promise to show up for class every day with my tackle box and thinking cap on.

Thanks to you and all the vets who have stuck around the micros to teach us n00bs, even though you're likely on your own journey at the SS forums by now. I, for one, am very grateful.

-Salty

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
All good poker players got there because they spent a lot of time THINKING about poker. But we veterans have a responsibility too. So I'll do my best to explain my thinking and not give just rote one-liners.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not a veteran, and that is especially why I usually explain my thinking when I post a reply to a hand post. Do you see why?

When I'm very confident I know the correct action, I might post a one line answer.

If the veterans are teachers, then the newbies are students and perhaps ought be held accountable for doing research and homework. Do you see why?

[droolie]

As an addition to Davelin's sage advice I would like to add....

ASK QUESTIONS OR POST COMMENTS IN EXISTING THREADS!!!

Posting hands is not that helpful if you post boring hands that no one repsonds to. Find an existing thread and when a bit of advice is confusing to you question it? Say what your instinct was and try to defend your play. The discussion that will insure will help your game more than anything I can recommend. It's much more important to understand the underlying concepts than it is to understand the best line for one given hand. When you ask questions or challenge advice the insuing discussion will give you a much better understanding of concepts which will apply to many situations you will encounter. We might even learn a thing or two about poker from you in the process. I know I try to learn something new every day!

Don't be afraid of criticism. It is your best friend here! Pride is for the weak minded who are afraid to learn!

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to you and all the vets who have stuck around the micros to teach us n00bs, even though you're likely on your own journey at the SS forums by now.

[/ QUOTE ]

For my part, explaining difficult things to others helps me at least as much as who I am talking to. It clarifies things in my mind.

[btspider]

for the "bet flop, call turn" responses, its really up to the new posters to figure out why a certain answer is correct. honestly i love it when there is a debate in SS and someone like clark comes along and simply gives his 'answer'. having an answer key and even a *little* self-motivation is enough to figure out most hands.

the past few months, if I'm the first to respond to a topic, i tend to simply ask the topic creator questions to direct him rather than provide answers. i'm not sure what peeps think about that style.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[UncleSalty]

That's good Grunch. I intend on helping you in that regard A LOT this year. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[GrunchCan]

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Don't be afraid of criticism. It is your best friend here!

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. Some of the most useful threads for my own learning were ones where I posted advice, and was met with a barrage of "This is the worst advice I've ever seen." And there were plenty. And they aren't even old enough to be archived yet. /images/graemlins/blush.gif And no, you should not go bumping those threads. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't be afraid of criticism. It is your best friend here!

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. Some of the most useful threads for my own learning were ones where I posted advice, and was met with a barrage of "This is the worst advice I've ever seen." And there were plenty. And they aren't even old enough to be archived yet. /images/graemlins/blush.gif And no, you should not go bumping those threads. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine are usually found on the front page. (I wish I was joking)

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
the past few months, if I'm the first to respond to a topic, i tend to simply ask the topic creator questions to direct him rather than provide answers. i'm not sure what peeps think about that style.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that style can be helpful to the thread starter, Dog. Further, it might tend to encourage more thoughful questions which would naturally lead to more insightful responses. Tough Love coming from the hood.

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
the past few months, if I'm the first to respond to a topic, i tend to simply ask the topic creator questions to direct him rather than provide answers. i'm not sure what peeps think about that style.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
It seems like a lot of the OPs don't answer those posts, and will just wait for someone to give a line rather than a thought process.

I wish people would contribute more to their own threads, sometimes.

[lillumultipass]

as I am one of the newbie, I am already very grateful!
And it is true that criticism is your best friend: I can tell, my first hand posted here has been heavily criticized /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
for the "bet flop, call turn" responses, its really up to the new posters to figure out why a certain answer is correct. honestly i love it when there is a debate in SS and someone like clark comes along and simply gives his 'answer'. having an answer key and even a *little* self-motivation is enough to figure out most hands.

the past few months, if I'm the first to respond to a topic, i tend to simply ask the topic creator questions to direct him rather than provide answers. i'm not sure what peeps think about that style.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that approach, its better to have to figure out why the action is correct than just have it handed to you

[meep_42]

Nice post, davelin. (long time no see... :P )

I'd also suggest that you respond to other responses in posts -- if you want clairification or to challenge their thinking.

The best benefits from this board are not from posting or responding to hands, they are from interactive discussion.

-d

[GoHoosiers]

I have been a lurker here for a while, and only recently have I felt confident enough to offer any advice to anyone.

It seems to me that instances of short, terse replies such as "Fold flop - raise turn" may be indicative that the vets see them as such standard, automatic plays that no elaboration is needed.

For newbs, we must slowly think out many things that a vet would do almost involuntarily...it's so automatic for them to raise, call, fold, etc....in certain situations.

So if a certain course of action seems mundane to a vet, just say that it's a pretty standard play in most situations.

That being said, I also believe that many newbs simply throw a hand onto the board and expect to be spoon-fed what to do, rather then flex a little of their grey matter to figure out what action is best.

I am a teacher, and I know that simply providing answers is not the way to go. If I felt like I was qualified do it, I personally would try a "quiz of the week", which would highlight several instances of raising for value, pumping a draw, folding the flop, etc. The "teacher" could then discuss the answers in later post. This would be invaluable to newer players.

But last, newbs - do not hesitiate to chime in on someone else's thread to say what you would have done, EVEN IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA if it's right or wrong. These are practice hands that you will eventually see in some form later. Start to think about them now. It helps you keep cool when time bar starts shrinking.

[DoctorDrew]

This says it all. Thanks.