Small pocket pairs are killing me

[kev0ut]

I looked in my poker tracker stats and I am losing big time with 88 through 22. Are these hands (especially as low as 55-22) even worth playing?

[Fat Nicky]

these hands make money in the long run if they are played correctly. post some hands...

[SeaEagle]

These hands are not big money winners. You should be able to churn a profit with them if you play them right but one of the most common mistakes in limit poker is playing small pairs too often and too far.

Simply choosing better spots to play your pairs will probably help a lot. I would recommend (re)reading the section on playing small pairs in any decent poker book.

[stevew]

One big mistake I see people making with small pairs is cold calling raises with them. As you're hoping to flop a set you want to get in cheap and have lots of company.

[IGMorton]

I'm starting to wonder whether his advice in SSH for small pairs in his starting hands guide is correct for internet play. He explains that their value comes primarilly from the huge implied odds expectation when you flop a set. However, I rarely find a table that is passive enough to be able to limp in for 1 small bet.

Since there are soo many LAG's out there... i'm not comfortable limping in with the weakest pairs unless i know there is a good chance it will only cost me one bet (late position), or that there are a large number of players allready in the pot so that having to call a raise isn't that bad.

22-44 have absolutely no value other than if you flop a set. Thus i need to be sure i can enter a multi-way pot cheaply. I only limp from LP if 3 people are in the pot or complete from the SB.

55-66 besides being a little higher, the tiny chance of flopping a straight draw make these a little better. I limp from MP or better. From LP i'll call a raise if 4 others are in the pot.

77-88 occaionally have some value even if you don't hit a set when the flop has no face cards. their value increases with less players. so i'm more comfortable calling in EP, since it's okay if only a few people see the flop. From LP i'll call a raise if 3 others are in the pot.

[QTip]

I think you're missing something...

These pairs are absolute goldmines in a LAG if played correctly.

[JudoGirl]

ok...so what is correctly?

[Fat Nicky]

in a loose passive game you can limp from UTG with any pair.

If it's folded to me in MP, I will fold 22-66, raise 77 and above, you shouldn't be limping in first with any hand from MP.

[QTip]

PF, in a loose game, I'm in any position.

Opening middle position is something I'm not sure about yet, and I dont' think there's much of a standard is these forums yet.

You can cold-call if it's multiway...implied odds are huge in a LAG.

Postflop play is where it's at.

Generally, if you don't hit trips on the flop, you're done. Don't go peeling without the odds, especially OOP.

If you flop trips, in general, don't slowplay. Find ways to protect your hand in a big pot. If you can't protect, raise for value...

What am I missing?

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
I looked in my poker tracker stats and I am losing big time with 88 through 22. Are these hands (especially as low as 55-22) even worth playing?

[/ QUOTE ]

44 is my 4th biggest winning hand this year!

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm starting to wonder whether his advice in SSH for small pairs in his starting hands guide is correct for internet play. He explains that their value comes primarilly from the huge implied odds expectation when you flop a set. However, I rarely find a table that is passive enough to be able to limp in for 1 small bet.

Since there are soo many LAG's out there... i'm not comfortable limping in with the weakest pairs unless i know there is a good chance it will only cost me one bet (late position), or that there are a large number of players allready in the pot so that having to call a raise isn't that bad.

22-44 have absolutely no value other than if you flop a set. Thus i need to be sure i can enter a multi-way pot cheaply. I only limp from LP if 3 people are in the pot or complete from the SB.

55-66 besides being a little higher, the tiny chance of flopping a straight draw make these a little better. I limp from MP or better. From LP i'll call a raise if 4 others are in the pot.

77-88 occaionally have some value even if you don't hit a set when the flop has no face cards. their value increases with less players. so i'm more comfortable calling in EP, since it's okay if only a few people see the flop. From LP i'll call a raise if 3 others are in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to work on table selection

And they have additional value beside set value. Specifically, I'm thinking about blind steal situations.

[QTip]

Nick:

I'm still trying to work this out. Here's a post I made a couple of weeks ago.

This link never works form me. I made a post called "Opening small pp in MP" on the 14th of March. Check it out. Lots of different thoughts there on the topic.

[chief444]

22-55 are all profitable hands for me and I often play them from EP.

[chief444]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=192 2684&Forum=All_Forums&Words="55"&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=1922684&Search=true&wh ere=bodysub&Name=17962&daterange=1&newerval=1&newe rtype=m&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1922684]Opening%20in%20MP%20with%20small%20pp (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=192 2684&Forum=All_Forums&Words=)

[QTip]

See how it made it one huge long link? I hate that. Anyway...I just bumped it.

[meep_42]

Here's a URL~ (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=192 2684&Forum=All_Forums&Words=)

-d

[QTip]

So what did you fix meep? Was the ~ the key?

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
Nick:

I'm still trying to work this out. Here's a post I made a couple of weeks ago.

This link never works form me. I made a post called "Opening small pp in MP" on the 14th of March. Check it out. Lots of different thoughts there on the topic.


[/ QUOTE ]

just read through that thread, I really don't have much to add to chief's comments...i find the best thing to do with these hands is too keep it simple using rigid guidelines unless I have solid reads on my opponents left to act behind me.

[Verdi]

All my pairs are profitable. Just make sure you get in for cheap (late position!!) and drop it once you don't hit your set.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
these hands make money in the long run if they are played correctly. post some hands...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised this post didnt end the thread...