easiest hand ever revisited

[bodie]

Ironically enough last night I was playing live at a B&M - nine-handed O8 when the following flop came:

A, A, 4, 9

A couple of checks and then someone bet. Everyone folded.
The bettor didn't show, but whether he had quad aces or not he only got the blinds for his efforts. I still say that if he had checked around and then bet he more likely would have gotten at least a couple of BB's, or at least had a chance to.
Again, it really depends on so many factors, such as the pot hadn't been raised, etc, but there were plenty of aggressive but tight players. It's not the first time I've seen this, and certainly won't be the last, I'm sure.

[Cooker]

Was the flop AA9 or AA4? I don't think it matters much, because I don't think slowplaying quad aces is obvious on either board. Basically, I think they are both missing the element of making someone a possible second best high hand that they will really like.

Maybe the AA9 is an okay candidate for a slowplay, but you will also let in backdoor lows. You are basically hoping someone makes an under full, but they will still probably worry enough about you having Aces full when you call that they won't go nuts with it. If you have a chance to quarter backdoor lows (like AA23 or AA24) then I would be somewhat more inclined to slowplay. Realize that you are jeopardizing half the pot for a chance to get a worse high to pay you a little more. Quad jacks on JJ9 is a much different story. Your opponent could make an overfull or a straight on the next card and may pay off plus there is no chance for a low cutting out half of your pot.

With an AA4 flop, even if I have the nut low draw as well, the low draws are coming along anyway, why not make them pay to get quartered? If the low makes on the turn making a possible straight, I might try for a check raise if the pot isn't heads up even without any low (I could only have trip aces and worry when the 5 hits). Otherwise I am probably not getting cute here.

[Spladle Master]

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Ironically enough last night I was playing live at a B&M - nine-handed O8 when the following flop came:

A, A, 4, 9

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Usually flops only have three cards.

[slavic]

If anything you have to bet quads on the flop because you are protecting hte low pot that you have not won yet. Sure you locked up the high but the low is vulnerable and valuable, such that I think slowplaying on a 2 lowcard board is very wrong. I've seen very few slowplay spots in O8 other than waiting for a safecard from time to time.

[bodie]

that's what I get for not reviewing my post. The flop was:

A, A, 4

Quad Aces is not a vulnerable hand. The object is to build the pot as big as you can. Yes, a low could get in, but so can other pairs who might chance it if they don't think anyone has aces full or better.

[slavic]

Quad Aces is not a vulnerable hand.

No this is wrong. Quad aces is a very vulnerable hand to half of the pot. There are 24 cards that have 2 chances at removing half of your pot equity. That means the low is going to hit (from your perspective closeto 80% of the time) If we assume two lows are out it's 70% and if only 1 it's 75%. This means that winning the whole pot immediatly is quite a bit better than having someone draw and back into a low. The pot would have to be very very small for this not to be true.

[Matt Ruff]

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that's what I get for not reviewing my post. The flop was:

A, A, 4

Quad Aces is not a vulnerable hand.

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Quad aces is not a likely hand. The guy who bet the flop probably had trip aces, or, if he was lucky, a full house.

That said, of course even quad aces is vulnerable here -- if a low comes, he loses half the pot.


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The object is to build the pot as big as you can.

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The object is to maximize your winnings. Better to scoop a small pot than split a slightly larger one.


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Yes, a low could get in, but so can other pairs who might chance it if they don't think anyone has aces full or better.

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As Slavic points out, there are 24 cards that make a low here, so if you give away free draws a low probably will get in. Meanwhile, a pocket pair has only two outs to fill up -- a much less likely occurance, and one that won't yield much action unless the guy holding them is brain dead.

Remember, quad aces is extremely unlikely (although if you raised pre-flop from early position, I'd definitely be thinking about it). With two aces on the flop, what the players are going to be worried about is *trip* aces/aces full, and the fact that someone checks the flop here is no guarantee they don't have an ace. Someone with a pocket pair who hits his two-outer on the turn or river can't safely assume he's got the best full house, so he's not going to push with it -- and meanwhile, the low draws you let in for free will collect half of any action you do get.

-- M. Ruff

[bodie]

"Quad aces is not a likely hand. The guy who bet the flop probably had trip aces, or, if he was lucky, a full house."

Usually that would be the case, but my post was referring to the original post, wherein the poster *did* flop quad aces and bet on them. He also had raised preflop.
I really don't mean to argue this, because so much depends on the quality of the players at the table, if the bets were capped preflop, position, etc.

"That said, of course even quad aces is vulnerable here -- if a low comes, he loses half the pot. "

But it's not vulnerable to many high hands, I would still rather manipulate as best I could to win half of a larger pot that includes BB's, than win only the blinds. Remember, the poster raised preflop then bet on a flop which has two aces. A little intimidating to anyone who might want to see one more card and feel that maybe somehow the poster missed the flop - or who might not want to get quartered with their own A,2.
Out of curiosity, under which conditions would you "slow play" a hand? Only when there's no low possible on the flop?

[slavic]

Out of curiosity, under which conditions would you "slow play" a hand? Only when there's no low possible on the flop?

I tend to slowplay made hands that I might have to fold on the turn. In other words it would be ok to push them on the flop but I get more value pushing on the turn. I would also slowplay hands that have killed the deck so bad noone can have a playable hand. So in O8 if I had KKQJ and the board is KKQ, I'm likely not putting in any aggression. Otherwise people chase so often that playing your hand aggressivly should be the norm by far, and these slow playing situations come up so rarely that no matter how you play them (including just folding) makes a difference to your win rate.

Also note that the case of having quad aces or top house with aces is quite different from Quad 9's - K's because the ace puts a low card on the board. This means half the pot will be vulnerable, and we are playing to scoop not just split the revenue.

Winning a 12BB pot is better than splitting a 20BB pot.

[Matt Ruff]

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"Quad aces is not a likely hand. The guy who bet the flop probably had trip aces, or, if he was lucky, a full house."

Usually that would be the case, but my post was referring to the original post, wherein the poster *did* flop quad aces and bet on them.

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I get that. But you're talking about trying to fool people into underestimating the strength of your hand, so it's important to consider what hands they are likely to be worried about.

When I see two aces flop in Omaha, and I'm not holding an ace myself, my first thought is not, "Oh my God, I could be up against quads!" it's "At least one of my opponents probably has trip aces and could be holding a full house." The fact that someone checks/calls the flop is not strong evidence that they don't have an ace -- besides the possibility that they are slow-playing aces full, it could be that they haven't filled up yet, and are worried about flush or straight draws or the other ace.

Given the above, slow-playing quad aces is futile. Yes, you might fool me into thinking you don't have quads -- but only because I'm worried that you and the guy sitting next to you both have trips! Even if I’m lucky enough to make a full house myself, there’s no way I’m going to feel confident enough to go to war with it.


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I really don't mean to argue this, because so much depends on the quality of the players at the table, if the bets were capped preflop, position, etc.

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Actually, I think this is a case where table conditions really don’t matter much. With that flop, I think betting quad aces straightforwardly is your best line no matter who you’re playing with, what your position is, or what the pre-flop action was.


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"That said, of course even quad aces is vulnerable here -- if a low comes, he loses half the pot. "

But it's not vulnerable to many high hands, I would still rather manipulate as best I could to win half of a larger pot that includes BB's, than win only the blinds.

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I would rather win all of the blinds than just half of them. Meanwhile, my best shot at winning *more* than the blinds is to forget about the high hands, who won’t give me action, and concentrate on the low draws, who will. Bet the flop, hope lots of people with 2s and 3s and 5s and 6s in their hands call, and hope further that the turn card is a blank. On the turn, repeat. If the low draws bust out and I scoop, I get a big pot; even if the low does come, my half should be pretty sweet -- and the earlier I start betting, the sweeter it’ll be.


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Remember, the poster raised preflop then bet on a flop which has two aces. A little intimidating to anyone who might want to see one more card

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It’s very intimidating to people with pocket pairs and flush draws, but they’re going to be leary of this flop no matter what the pre-flop raiser does. It’s less intimidating to people with low draws. If I’m holding 23xx or 235x on a flop of AA4, a bet from the pre-flop raiser isn’t that scary -- most pre-flop raising hands contain an ace, so it figures he’s got a pretty decent high hand right now, and even if he doesn't, *somebody* does. I expect a bet on this flop, and so long as a raising war doesn’t break out, I’m tagging along to the turn to see if I can make my wheel (if a raising war does break out, I may have to fold, but the guy with the quad aces should be thrilled).


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Out of curiosity, under which conditions would you "slow play" a hand?

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I like Cooker’s example, pocket jacks on a board of JJ9. There’s no low, my hand is a cinch for high, and there are lots of cards that could come to make someone a decent-looking second-best hand -- the ideal would be to have someone holding pocket aces or kings fill up on the turn, but even straights or flushes could decide to pay me off.

-- M. Ruff