Tough JJ hand

[thesharpie]

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, (CO) calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (19 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, ($0.25)(CO) folds.

Turn: (11 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (15 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 17 BB


If there was less in the pot perhaps I could raise the flop, and fold if SB 3 bets and leads the turn. But if I do raise and he 3 bets and I miss the turn I'll still have odds to continue to the river, and the pot will be so huge I'll probably have to make a crying call on the river, so I lose 1 more BB than just playing it passive all the way.

I thought about folding on the turn but it seems weak tight.

[tiltaholic]

i think you need to raise this flop, primarily to get a free card. if he 3-bets, then i call and fold the turn UI.

an unknown 3-betting out of the SB means something. if he doesn't slow down to agression, I'd fold.

OT, i'm not going to say, "don't post so many hands", but at the very least, include reads. if you can't include reads...why not?

[LuckyStrike]

I'd fold the turn after you miss your two-outer. A read would be helpful, but an average opponent is probably only going to 3-bet with AK or a big pair. Factor in so many others hanging around and I don't think you have a good enough chance of winning to continue.

[jrz1972]

Absent a read on SB as maniacal, what hands would he 3-bet with that you're beating? TT? KQs? You're drawing to two outs against all other "standard" 3-betting hands.

Add in the fact that you've got a couple of other opponents in there with you, and I think this is a very easy fold on the turn, if not the flop.

[thesharpie]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you need to raise this flop, primarily to get a free card. if he 3-bets, then i call and fold the turn UI.

an unknown 3-betting out of the SB means something. if he doesn't slow down to agression, I'd fold.

OT, i'm not going to say, "don't post so many hands", but at the very least, include reads. if you can't include reads...why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I look at it the implied odds are slightly less than required on the turn to carry on even if it does get 3 bet on the flop, and like you said a free card would be nice even if he has me beat.

If I have a read on a player I always try to remember to post it, the trouble is I don't have many reads as I don't have GT+ running on paradise as you have to request the hand histories by email, and it sometimes takes hours to arrive in my inbox. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Plus my monitor resolution isn't as high as I'd like and I have windows overlapping when multitabling, hard to see all teh action.

I could post reads I've found out about the player after the hand happened from looking through pokertracker, but that seems iffy as I didn't have the read at the time the hand happened so I might've played it differently than if I had a read.

[thesharpie]

[ QUOTE ]
Absent a read on SB as maniacal, what hands would he 3-bet with that you're beating? TT? KQs? You're drawing to two outs against all other "standard" 3-betting hands.

Add in the fact that you've got a couple of other opponents in there with you, and I think this is a very easy fold on the turn, if not the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold the flop getting 21-1? Is this because hero's not closing the action?

[jrz1972]

You're getting the odds to chase your two-outer on the flop . This becomes a clear fold on the turn.

Folding the flop is wrong, but calling the turn is a much worse mistake.

Edit: Sorry, I just realized I didn't phrase my original post as clearly as I should have. What I meant was that the turn is a clear fold even if though the flop isn't.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Now I look at it the implied odds are slightly less than required on the turn to carry on even if it does get 3 bet on the flop, and like you said a free card would be nice even if he has me beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you raise the flop, other guy folds, he 3-bets and you call...i don't think you are even close to getting enough odds, implied or otherwise, to see the river.

the pot is big enough to see the turn, and I think the risk of getting 3-bet is worth the potential ability to see a free river.

[ QUOTE ]
If I have a read on a player I always try to remember to post it, the trouble is I don't have many reads as I don't have GT+ running on paradise as you have to request the hand histories by email, and it sometimes takes hours to arrive in my inbox.

[/ QUOTE ]

GT+ is a great tool, but reads existed prior to GT+. if you are playing on "GT autopilot" then just say so, say no reads - but the advice you will get it usually, "it depends." i have been playing on paradise recently, usually 3 tables with overlap. it is very possible to see who is what in a general sense. these kinds of reads help too and usually mean a lot more than "LP-P 35/2/.90 after 40 hands"...just a thought.

[KaiShin]

I think raising this flop is good, for reasons that Tiltaholic has already outlined. A 3-bet on the flop by SB can narrow it down to AA-AK, maybe KK, then we can easily pitch it on the turn.