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View Full Version : 2/4 Do you think this QQ line ever shuts down AA or KK?

Chris Dow
03-30-2005, 08:02 AM
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, Button calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

I'm dumping if either of them is willing to raise into me on the turn. Playing like this could cost me an extra bet on the river if they wait until then to raise. Anyway, comments? I am characterizing these players as a bit subpar by 2/4 standards. (So not very good)
einbert
03-30-2005, 08:10 AM
I don't see why just three-betting the flop isn't the best option. If it's capped you have a relatively easy turn check/fold, if not you can keep firing and folding to a raise.

Do you think it's very likely that MP1 will cap the flop with AJ? I don't think many players threebet that hand PF in the first place, so I think it's either JJ-AA or AK and I doubt AK is capping the flop but wouldn't be at all surprised to see it raise the flop up.

I really doubt an overpair is raising you on the river, I imagine they would either call down, cap the flop, or raise the turn. If you get to the river against an overpair they are going to just call almost every time I believe.
Chris Dow
03-30-2005, 08:15 AM
I am terrified that AJ might get me to fold incorrectly by 4 betting the flop. Like you mentioned, an overpair still pops me on the turn but I am willing to bet that the AJ never will. As you pointed out it's very unlikely that either kings or aces will wait to the river to pop me one more time so it looks like I can define my hand quite well on the turn. I don't think that just betting into an AA that shuts down and starts calling from the turn on really hurts me either, I make it to showdown and I see cards so I might spike my queen. Thoughts?
DeeJ
03-30-2005, 08:27 AM
Short answer is that you won't shut down KK/AA on a raggedy board. MP1 should raise the river here even if he underplayed KK/AA at the turn wrongly fearing the flush.

I think you played it just fine. Whatever did Button have? 99?
Chris Dow
03-30-2005, 08:30 AM
The fact it won't shut them down I like more, because that allows me to bet the turn and fold to a raise, which is exactly what I was doing.
chesspain
03-30-2005, 09:17 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I am terrified that AJ might get me to fold incorrectly by 4 betting the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

How often are unknowns three-betting preflop from MP with AJ?
ErrantNight
03-30-2005, 09:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I am terrified that AJ might get me to fold incorrectly by 4 betting the flop. Like you mentioned, an overpair still pops me on the turn but I am willing to bet that the AJ never will. As you pointed out it's very unlikely that either kings or aces will wait to the river to pop me one more time so it looks like I can define my hand quite well on the turn. I don't think that just betting into an AA that shuts down and starts calling from the turn on really hurts me either, I make it to showdown and I see cards so I might spike my queen. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your read on these opponents that you think they're shutting down on AA or KK because you pull a stop 'n' go? They get confused and call down because they've never see one?

You shouldn't be calling the flop raise and bet/folding this turn. For sure. Particularly if you fear this opponent is aggressive enough to cap AJ if you 3-bet it. In fact, if this opponent is aggressive enough to cap AJ, that's even MORE reason to 3-bet it. Because a cap is less scary if/when it comes.

3-bet the flop, and slow down if raised, but you're going to showdown. any line that suggests otherwise is a huge, gaping chasm in the middle of your game.
Chris Dow
03-30-2005, 09:18 AM
As I said, these guys are playing bad by 2/4 standards. So I'm definitely giving this to them as a distinct possibility here.
chesspain
03-30-2005, 09:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
As I said, these guys are playing bad by 2/4 standards. So I'm definitely giving this to them as a distinct possibility here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you say this--certainly not at the beginning of this thread? Nonetheless, basing your post-flop play on the assumption that generically "bad" 2-4 players will three-bet with AJ from MP doesn't make it seem as if you have a huge edge in this game.
Chris Dow
03-30-2005, 09:30 AM
Alrighty chesspain, I dunno exactly what you mean by I don't have an edge in the game. I would point out the last line of the original post, which is where I say these guys are bad. I don't understand what you mean by basing my post flop play on the way I perceive the players and therefore taking a line that I think allows them to make maximum mistakes is playing without an edge, but I suppose I don't want to either. So anyway, I would like to hear a good defense of why a 3 bet on the flop might be required here or why not 3 betting the flop is bad, but short of that continued flaming is good.
chesspain
03-30-2005, 09:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
So anyway, I would like to hear a good defense of why a 3 bet on the flop might be required here or why not 3 betting the flop is bad, but short of that continued flaming is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said to three-bet the flop (although that may be the best line). I simply opined the assuming that "bad" = "will three-bet preflop from MP with AJ" is likely not the way to maximize your earn in the Party 2/4 game.
Chris Dow
03-30-2005, 09:40 AM
Because it is incorrect? Why is it not maximizing is what I'm asking you.
HajiShirazu
03-30-2005, 09:47 AM
I would just 3-bet the flop, and there's no way I'm folding the turn/river to a player who is "subpar by 2/4 standards" even if it's capped.
03-30-2005, 09:48 AM
the word fold should never get close to your mind during this hand. 3 bet the flop and call down if 4 bet. taking your line, if you get raised on the turn you should call barring a read that he's stable/passive
brettbrettr
03-30-2005, 11:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I would just 3-bet the flop, and there's no way I'm folding the turn/river to a player who is "subpar by 2/4 standards" even if it's capped.

[/ QUOTE ]
afk
03-30-2005, 11:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
As I said, these guys are playing bad by 2/4 standards. So I'm definitely giving this to them as a distinct possibility here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad in what way? loose and passive? loose and aggressive? The vast majority of 2/4 players won't 3bet AJ. Most will cold-call with it.
Chris Dow
03-30-2005, 12:10 PM
The obvious response here is that the raiser is LAGing while clearly the guy calling 3 cold is LPing. I think it's pretty safe to say that anyone calling 3 cold from the button is obviously LPing. Since I 4 bet the Queens it looks like I have to be saying that the 3 bettor is LAGing here. (I wouldn't think it would be necessary to cap the queens for fun since you're going to play, especially not if your general read on the 3 bettor strongly suggests that AA KK AKs and QQ are his only possible holdings)