2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines [Archive]

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 07:02 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Anyone even suggest thinking about another line here?

einbert

03-30-2005, 07:06 AM

I would raise preflop. I would bet the flop too, why go for the checkraise when noone might even bet?

After that it's all elementary.

DeeJ

03-30-2005, 07:09 AM

Looks fine to me. You will get raised @ river if he hits a runner runner flush, what do you do then .. call or fold /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 07:13 AM

I have the Kc in my hand, if he has the actc or acjc he gets an extra bet. Raise preflop seems completely unnecessary and I would argue bad. It is not for value vs this EP limper. His hand is better than mine and I have no fold equity and I'm oop.

einbert

03-30-2005, 07:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have the Kc in my hand, if he has the actc or acjc he gets an extra bet. Raise preflop seems completely unnecessary and I would argue bad. It is not for value vs this EP limper. His hand is better than mine and I have no fold equity and I'm oop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had said he was a tight limper that would make a difference. I assumed an unknown since you gave no reads. Against an unknown openlimping UTG+1 I am raising this every time.

03-30-2005, 07:17 AM

raise that flop

raise that preflop

raise yourself on the turn. you have the nuts

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 07:19 AM

Is that good though einbert? What are you accomplishing. Ok, force out the bb. (maybe) Build a pot. (Ok?) Start teaching him preflop that you have a big hand so that he will fold on the flop? (This seems like the most valid reason to me) Just exploring the thought process of the pf raise here. I was very comfortable calling. It also appears as if my deception collected me a lot of extra bets. Any considerations to the value of that when deciding between call and raise preflop?

03-30-2005, 07:20 AM

get it headsup and increase your chances of taking it down

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 07:22 AM

I assume we are all in agreement that the pf raise is far from guaranteed to get it hu. Does it really increase your chances of taking it down? Can you estimate by how much?

03-30-2005, 07:24 AM

that's hard to estimate. 3 handed though you probably have the best hand

besides, you flopped the nuts

einbert

03-30-2005, 07:25 AM

My thought process is that you probably have the best hand, your hand is more likely to hold up against one player than two, and dead money in the pot is good.

The almost two thirds of the time that you flop nothing more than an overcard or two, you will be glad that you have a decent chance to take it down with a flop bet.

Of course the X% of the time that you flop a straight, two pair or trips you would rather the BB still be in the hand, but the times you will flop nothing or one pair are many more than the times you will flop something like that.

If the limper were a very tight PF, well playing postflop player than I would be less inclined to raise, for sure. But with no other information I would assume that my hand beats his range of hands and obviously my hand is better than the completely random hand that belongs to the BB.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 07:34 AM

Oof. I don't want to be results oriented here I am not advocating call because I flopped the nuts. I didn't get any money out of the BB or try to slowplay to get him to call. I just don't think I mind having him in there. If ep has any PP any ace or KQ, I'm not ahead preflop. I do understand that *maybe* my aggression preflop will get him to fold. But I don't necessarily like the fact that going into the flop I have a required bet, and probably a required turn bet too.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 07:35 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 4 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 1.75 BB

Another hand that just came up, curious how you guys react to it as I think some of the same concepts we are talking about here apply. Do you object to this line?

03-30-2005, 07:41 AM

I think raising in that spot elicits suspicion so I'm very picky there. sometimes I won't even raise AJ. instead I bet any flop, or checkraise.

here I would bet the flop. he only has to fold about 30% of the time

einbert

03-30-2005, 07:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Oof. I don't want to be results oriented here I am not advocating call because I flopped the nuts. I didn't get any money out of the BB or try to slowplay to get him to call. I just don't think I mind having him in there. If ep has any PP any ace or KQ, I'm not ahead preflop. I do understand that *maybe* my aggression preflop will get him to fold. But I don't necessarily like the fact that going into the flop I have a required bet, and probably a required turn bet too.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not 'required' for sure, but I think it is +EV to bet the flop almost every time the BB folds and the limper calls your PFR. The turn is a whole different story though, in my opinion.

My bad on accusing you of being results oriented.

The BB, if he is loose, will call with a ton of hands you have dominated and that is +EV big time. Most BB will call here with hands like K9, KT, JT, JQ, and others and when that happens it is bigtime money in your pocket. You could also have the limper dominated.

The limper has you dominated here a very small portion of the time in my opinion, you have him dominated a ton more. KQ has you in awful shape but you're not in bad shape at all against Ax, especially if he is bad postflop.

If the limper has a PP <JJ and the BB has a hand he will fold to your PF raise, it is really good for you to raise this PF because you have a much easier chance of getting the PP to fold incorrectly (depending on the player of course) and you get a SB of dead money in the pot.

I think the dead money when it occurs is really nice, who knows maybe I am overrating it. I think it comes down to the combo of that (if BB is tighter) and the BB calling you with hands you are way ahead of (if he is looser) that makes this a really +EV raise.

einbert

03-30-2005, 07:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 4 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 1.75 BB

Another hand that just came up, curious how you guys react to it as I think some of the same concepts we are talking about here apply. Do you object to this line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you have the best hand here PF almost every single time. And you're going to outflop him 2/3 of the time even if you don't have him dominated. I would have raised PF and bet the flop, folding to a raise.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 07:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The BB, if he is loose, will call with a ton of hands you have dominated and that is +EV big time. Most BB will call here with hands like K9, KT, JT, JQ, and others and when that happens it is bigtime money in your pocket. You could also have the limper dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point that the BB is going to call anyway when I will have him crushed is a very good one that I was not considering enough. The equity edge I can have in spots like this certainly does suggest raising preflop. Thanks. The 77 hand is still a seperate situation. I do agree I could just fire one bullet on the flop with the 77 however the flop is two cards above ten. I really lower the fold frequency a lot in this scenario since I can't see any of the hands that add to 20 or 21 folding the flop for one bet since they at least have a gutshot maybe a pair. Any time he calls even one flop bet it's really hard for me from the turn on out.

Dariel86

03-30-2005, 07:57 AM

I wouldn't raise preflop. I think he did the right move there.

einbert

03-30-2005, 08:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't raise preflop. I think he did the right move there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well why don't you add your reasoning to the discussion, we already have a nice one going.

einbert

03-30-2005, 08:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Any time he calls even one flop bet it's really hard for me from the turn on out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind check/folding the turn. He called us on what to him must be a somewhat scary board unless he has an ace or flopped a monster, so unless he has the broadway gutshot (which has ten outs against us) he is beating us soundly almost every time, and when we're behind we only have two outs.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 08:08 AM

Oh I agree here einbert, even his broadway draw is ten outs so he's not robbing us blind if we occasionally make that mistake on the turn. Definitely close between betting out the 77 on the flop or folding it, I tend to think with the ace-jack flop a fold is safe enough. Queen Ten I'll be more inclined to bet into him (the play any weak ace philosophy makes me lean this way)

DeeJ

03-30-2005, 08:09 AM

I missed it was not raised preflop. Raise preflop.

chief444

03-30-2005, 08:48 AM

I raise preflop. You usually have the best hand. You give yourself a much better chance to win with no showdown.

I don't understand the flop check at all. It's pretty contradictory to your title and really serves no purpose.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 08:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the flop check at all. It's pretty contradictory to your title and really serves no purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? It completely baffles you? It serves no purpose? Sorry but all I think of when I read your reply is Huh? Huh? Huh? Really?

ErrantNight

03-30-2005, 08:54 AM

The preflop decision is marginal. A raise gives you intitiative and a chance to take this down on the flop for a single bet. You don't need to figure out a particular percentage, just know that this is the case. Then adjust based on your reads. If this is a tight limper and a loose big blind and at least one of them is inclined to get to showdown the raise doesn't have as much value.

But even if it's a typical limper and a typical bb raising isn't necessary here.

Just bet the flop.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 08:57 AM

Well, this should be clear but I'll elaborate... When I don't raise preflop that implies I'm assuming a tight limper. If he's a tight limper he's hit that flop, maybe really hard. If he's hit that flop he would bet if checked to. If he's gonna bet when checked to a cr would work. Now this is where I mention that you guys are adamantly telling me I need to lead the flop. Then I say Huh? The reasons I have to lead the flop are...

ErrantNight

03-30-2005, 08:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the flop check at all. It's pretty contradictory to your title and really serves no purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? It completely baffles you? It serves no purpose? Sorry but all I think of when I read your reply is Huh? Huh? Huh? Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

What a constructive response.

Why did you post this hand?

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 08:59 AM

It also should have been completely obvious that I mean, these points do not come across to me as even remotely obvious and therefore some serious elaboration would help.

ErrantNight

03-30-2005, 09:02 AM

I think you ARE Cinnamon Wind. No one else makes such bad, pointless posts with absolutely no reads. Then defends their play in hindsight by claiming we should look at your play first, and use THAT to determine what your reads were on your opponents, because clearly you played it perfectly.

You're not checking up on anything. You're absolutely convinced you played this the best way possible, even though you know raising preflop and leading this flop will be more popular responses, because they're more generally correct, and will continue to defend your line based on reads you never gave and action that actually took place.

you're such a treasure to have around in the forum.

chief444

03-30-2005, 09:02 AM

First, even a tight limper didn't necessarily hit this flop. Second, why on earth would you prefer to check/raise this as opposed to betting out and hopefully being raised by the limper? You may get BB to call one at a time but not two cold.

ErrantNight

03-30-2005, 09:05 AM

I have yet to read anything that you write that implies you have any interest in the opinions of others. And when you get unsolicited opinions the tone of your posts suggests people are stupid for making other suggestions.

If you really like being challenged and it's just in your nature to respond argumentatively and dismissively, change your attitude. Please.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 09:06 AM

Thank you chief, I was ignoring the big blind and that's a good point. I guess I gotta stop ignoring him since I ignored him both preflop and on the flop. As far as prefering to cr, my thoughts at the time were that he isn't terribly likely to raise just an ace here, but he will certainly bet it and then call down. Looked like an extra half bet to cr at least. It is certainly also an extra half bet if that BB will call one on the flop too though.

Edit: Errant, you're adding least of all and just cluttering and causing pages and pages to appear, seriously, let it go.

ErrantNight

03-30-2005, 09:08 AM

He doesn't need to fold a majority of the time to make a flop bet correct. Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate.

And why are you so terrified of the turn!??! There you are again... I don't want to make a play on the flop because I'm afraid of the turn... good lord, do you think these are signs you should learn how to play the turn? it tends to show up right after the flop. Every hand.

ErrantNight

03-30-2005, 09:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you chief, I was ignoring the big blind and that's a good point. I guess I gotta stop ignoring him since I ignored him both preflop and on the flop. As far as prefering to cr, my thoughts at the time were that he isn't terribly likely to raise just an ace here, but he will certainly bet it and then call down. Looked like an extra half bet to cr at least. It is certainly also an extra half bet if that BB will call one on the flop too though.

Edit: Errant, you're adding least of all and just cluttering and causing pages and pages to appear, seriously, let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's taken you about 6 posts to provide all the information we needed to make informed responses to your original post. Try including all the pertinent information next time.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 09:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't need to fold a majority of the time to make a flop bet correct. Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate.

And why are you so terrified of the turn!??! There you are again... I don't want to make a play on the flop because I'm afraid of the turn... good lord, do you think these are signs you should learn how to play the turn? it tends to show up right after the flop. Every hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is another completely wasted post which doesn't even make sense.
1. I never implied he has to fold a majority of the time.
2. That is in reference to the 77 hand, which is seperate. I'm commenting that the situation is probably break even and therefore since the turn is difficult to play one way I needn't select that option.

You're nitpicking my every post on here is a complete waste of everyones time. I'm tired of even defending myself since your attacks are so baseless.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 09:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's taken you about 6 posts to provide all the information we needed to make informed responses to your original post. Try including all the pertinent information next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quoi est ta probleme?

ErrantNight

03-30-2005, 09:28 AM

Has it ever occurred to you that besides what issues I have with your tone and quality of your posts that I'm actually simply attempting to discuss poker strategy?

Because you seem to take my tone of "here's my answer" as "here's ErrantNight being a dick on purpose to me"

I happen to be pretty good at poker. The fact that you don't like me doesn't change that. I think most of these questions you're asking about are pretty simple. I'm offering my argument.

1. You should lead this flop because you frequently have the best hand and it's a scary board if your opponent hasn't hit and will fold hands that have outs against you. This is easier if you raise preflop.

2. I know precisely which hand it is. Which is why I made my comments directly in response to it. It's not a break even flop proposition, particularly against an unknown. You need a specific read to make it so. I believe you're creating, intentionally or unintentionally, disparity between the actual ev of flop situations and your perceived ev of flop situations because you frequently find the turn difficult to play. IMO this is a huge leak.

Why is it a huge leak? Because if this is indicative of your thinking, it impacts a large portion of hands. Not just when you have a medium pocket pair on the button, or in the big blind, or wherever else.

But my suggesting this IS NOT AN ATTACK ON YOU. If I'm wrong, fine. I'm not judging you. I'm not saying this to make you feel bad about yourself, or to piss you off. I'm saying this because it can be gleaned from your posts.

I'm quite likely incorrect. You think this is break even because apparantly you believe this opponent will play any A, so you'd prefer not to bet because it creates a sticky turn situation if he calls. I think the likelihood of him playing any A makes it an easier bet. It gives you a chance to take it down, and makes it easier to determine a turn course of action if he calls. You don't have to change your mind, this is merely my opinion.

03-30-2005, 09:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the flop check at all. It's pretty contradictory to your title and really serves no purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? It completely baffles you? It serves no purpose? Sorry but all I think of when I read your reply is Huh? Huh? Huh? Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps a haiku will help:

If you flop the nuts
And it's checked around to you
You should bet it out

As CDC Says
"Betting is underrated"
Too bad he's a fish

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 09:34 AM

It wasn't checked around to me, I was the sb. I wish you guys would at least look at the hands. Sorry sthief, I really like your posts and value your input but not when you don't even read the hand. Not that the forum cares, but I sent Errant a PM and am sparing you all the agony of reading any future conversations between he and I by ignoring his posts, as I find them to be worthless to me anyway.

03-30-2005, 09:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't checked around to me, I was the sb. I wish you guys would at least look at the hands. Sorry sthief, I really like your posts and value your input but not when you don't even read the hand. Not that the forum cares, but I sent Errant a PM and am sparing you all the agony of reading any future conversations between he and I by ignoring his posts, as I find them to be worthless to me anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

some sacrifices in accuracy must be made when writing a haiku. I read the post and responded already. I tried to break the tension by providing some humorous haikus. apparently you don't like humor.

Signing off,

Bob "Coach" Ciaffone

03-30-2005, 09:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't checked around to me, I was the sb. I wish you guys would at least look at the hands. Sorry sthief, I really like your posts and value your input but not when you don't even read the hand. Not that the forum cares, but I sent Errant a PM and am sparing you all the agony of reading any future conversations between he and I by ignoring his posts, as I find them to be worthless to me anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW Errant happens to be one of the ss regulars whose opinion I respect most here. like top 3. it's a shame you couldn't find any value in what he was trying to get across to you

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 09:39 AM

Ah, ok my bad, the timing wasn't great for me and to imply I was checking behind with the nuts was too much for me to laugh at.

03-30-2005, 09:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, ok my bad, the timing wasn't great for me and to imply I was checking behind with the nuts was too much for me to laugh at.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 7 syllable line can be so tricky sometimes!

If you flop the nuts
And you are in the small blind
You must bet it out

digdeep

03-30-2005, 10:20 AM

I dont' like the checkraise for the aforementioned reasons, particularly you lose the call from the BB. I think the checkraise and cap on the flop completely kills any action you might get on the turn and the river; is this a good thing?

What about slowyplaying the flop and coming alive on the turn? Is this a more profitable line? Are you losing bets in the long-run? I.e.
Flop - bet call
Turn - bet, raise, raise, raise.
River - Bet, raise

Curious what people think of this line? Too risky to miss bets? Are you concerned about being drawn out on to the flush or boat?

ErrantNight

03-30-2005, 10:23 AM

the problem is that oop a raise on the end could be a free play, and a stop 'n' go could kill the action. it might not, but it's prolly not worth it to try.

with position, you can do things like smooth call a 3-bet and raise again on the turn.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 10:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont' like the checkraise for the aforementioned reasons, particularly you lose the call from the BB. I think the checkraise and cap on the flop completely drys up any action you might get on the turn and the river; is this a good thing?

What about slowyplaying the flop and coming alive on the turn? Is this a more profitable line? Are you losing bets in the long-run? I.e.
Flop - bet call
Turn - bet, raise, raise, raise.
River - Bet, raise

Curious what people think of this line? Too risky to miss bets? Are you concerned about being drawn out on to the flush or boat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this post is getting at what the point of initially posting was. Aside from realizing why cr on the flop is bad, I am still curious if anyone thinks I should dodge a scenario that caps the flop and go for something later. Like if I lead flop, bb does whatever, ep raises, now I just call instead of 3 betting looking to go for something on the flop? I wasn't in favor of that here because of the positional difficulty, is that generally how you guys would make that decision? Thus if I led and got raised I would go 3 and then lead? Would I lead if I got capped on the flop?

ErrantNight

03-30-2005, 10:31 AM

yeah, because your position sucks. you'd like to go to war on every street, and you want to make it easy for the guy caught in between to call bets.

it's not worth slowing up because it's just as likely to kill your action as fast-playing will, and if you do go to war on a later street, you might drive out a donk that's caught in the middle and drawing thin.

change your position... sure

03-30-2005, 10:38 AM

Bet Bet Bet Bet Bet
Better Than Slowplaying Your Hands
What an Easy Game!

Look out for my next book, "Bob Ciaffone Explains Poker Through Haiku"

spydog

03-30-2005, 10:40 AM

I'm not sure why you are so gunshy about raising these 2 hands preflop. I think you are underestimating the power of initiative when you are in a shorthanded situation with a good hand that is likely to be the best. When your opponent misses a flop, which they will do 2/3 of the time, you have huge fold equity in relation to the potsize. If these situations make you uncomfortable then I would encourage you to play some 6-max.

03-30-2005, 10:42 AM

Raising Preflop Is Good
And Pwning Limpers Is Fun
And You'll Win More Loot

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 10:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet Bet Bet Bet Bet
Better Than Slowplaying Your Hands
What an Easy Game!

Look out for my next book, "Bob Ciaffone Explains Poker Through Haiku"

[/ QUOTE ]

Will be a bestseller, you need any backing to publish that? Anyway I can get in on it?

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 10:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why you are so gunshy about raising these 2 hands preflop. I think you are underestimating the power of initiative when you are in a shorthanded situation with a good hand that is likely to be the best. When your opponent misses a flop, which they will do 2/3 of the time, you have huge fold equity in relation to the potsize. If these situations make you uncomfortable then I would encourage you to play some 6-max.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I wouldn't even begin to describe myself as gunshy about these hands preflop. The logic I am currently using to justify both of those situations is that keeping the pot so small preflop allows me to really punish them postflop with bets. As far as that 77 hand goes I am leading that into him almost all of the time on the flop. Ace and Paint is one of the only times I'm not leading. So yes, when I lead the 77 I want the pot to have 5 dollars in it so that I am betting 2 into 5 and he is getting 2 into 7 and if he wants to take one off with ax where x is lower than 7 he's really really making a mistake.

03-30-2005, 10:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet Bet Bet Bet Bet
Better Than Slowplaying Your Hands
What an Easy Game!

Look out for my next book, "Bob Ciaffone Explains Poker Through Haiku"

[/ QUOTE ]

Will be a bestseller, you need any backing to publish that? Anyway I can get in on it?

[/ QUOTE ]

give me money

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 10:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
give me money

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn if that's all it takes, PM an address, Party account name, where I can meet you or anything asap.

03-30-2005, 10:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
give me money

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn if that's all it takes, PM an address, Party account name, where I can meet you or anything asap.

[/ QUOTE ]

take my test for me

spydog

03-30-2005, 11:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As far as that 77 hand goes I am leading that into him almost all of the time on the flop. Ace and Paint is one of the only times I'm not leading.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should always come out betting an Ace high flop headsup. It's the card that gives you the most fold equity. If I held rag-rag on this flop, I would come out betting. They will fold a high enough % of time for this to be instantly profitable, regardless of what cards you hold.

Also, about the 77 hand. You are even money against 2 overcards before the flop. But that's only if the hand goes to showdown. So, you are looking for a way to win this hand before it goes to showdown, thereby increasing your equity from 50% to something significantly higher. What is the best way to increase you chance of getting your opponent to fold before showdown? Well, I think most advanced players (I'm not saying that I'm one of them) would tell you to raise preflop and bet any flop. I don't think there is any other way that is even close.

Also, sometimes your 77 will be a favorite against the limping hands like 22-66 or X2-X7. So, against these hands you are raising preflop for value.

03-30-2005, 11:06 AM

please bet your ace high
when you're heads up on the flop
otherwise you'll lose

sfer

03-30-2005, 11:07 AM

You flopped the nuts and shut out the BB. Nice. I don't want to give him a chance to call either.

You also didn't raise preflop with what is likely the best hand. Nice.

All-in-all. Nice.

03-30-2005, 11:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You flopped the nuts and shut out the BB. Nice. I don't want to give him a chance to call either.

You also didn't raise preflop with what is likely the best hand. Nice.

All-in-all. Nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I shall tell your boss
That you do not work, but post
You'll be fired by noon

wow, I'm seriously impressed with myself for that. if only I wasn't ripping off diablo. maybe I'll post some limericks later

sfer

03-30-2005, 11:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I shall tell your boss
That you do not work, but post
You'll be fired by noon

wow, I'm seriously impressed with myself for that. if only I wasn't ripping off diablo. maybe I'll post some lymericks later

[/ QUOTE ]

Limerick you douchebag.

How's the studying going? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 11:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You should always come out betting an Ace high flop headsup. It's the card that gives you the most fold equity. If I held rag-rag on this flop, I would come out betting. They will fold a high enough % of time for this to be instantly profitable, regardless of what cards you hold.

Also, about the 77 hand. You are even money against 2 overcards before the flop. But that's only if the hand goes to showdown. So, you are looking for a way to win this hand before it goes to showdown, thereby increasing your equity from 50% to something significantly higher. What is the best way to increase you chance of getting your opponent to fold before showdown? Well, I think most advanced players (I'm not saying that I'm one of them) would tell you to raise preflop and bet any flop. I don't think there is any other way that is even close.

Also, sometimes your 77 will be a favorite against the limping hands like 22-66 or X2-X7. So, against these hands you are raising preflop for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so this could be wrong but I'm throwing out my response anyway. Out of position I am not going to just bet every time I am the bb and I go hu to the flop and an ace pops. I think you are misinterpreting the fold equity here because I am the bb in an unraised pot. (they aren't going to believe I have the ace) So that is my take there.

Moving on to how to play 77-22 out of the BB when there is only one limper. With 88 I would raise so therefore I'm going to talk about 77-22. As you correctly pointed out, in a hot and cold to the river sim, these pairs are even money against two overs. Ok now let's throw that away because this hand isn't going to play out as check check check see who wins. You point out that these hands have very little preflop equity against most hands because of this, and that is correct so I am checking preflop for deception purposes rather than raising because I have a pair. I do not like raising from the BB with any of these hands in this situation because it ties me into betting every flop. That bet definitely seems to favor my opponent in my mind since he gets to see if he made any pairs. (I'm not going to really go into avoiding a LRR because that's not very frequently a concern but it is another reason not to raise preflop against certain opponents) So basically we have that by investing 2 bets preflop your opponent invests 2 bets preflop and then for 1 bet on the flop you have a pretty decent shot at the 4 preflop bets but if called you're drawing very thin (and might not even be behind but pretty much have to assume you are) and if raised you're just losing 3 bets in what was an attempt to win your opponents two bets (and the sb). I understand the desire to really push any edge in this forum because it is important. However with 77-22 in the bb and just one limper we are looking at a 1.25 BB pot. I do not think extra aggression is warranted here. I like to just check and take shots at flops that are very rainbowish with maybe only one over and particularly, bulletless. I do not think it is a mistake to not push preflop since the potsize is 1.25 BBs. I have expounded most of those reasons in this post and would really want to hear from others especially if they think it is a mistake to play this way out of the BB. (I think it is better to play by checking preflop from the BB for reasons like deception and the fact that you are oop in this situation but I suppose I can't argue that it is immensely better than raising and trying to take it down on the flop)

03-30-2005, 11:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I shall tell your boss
That you do not work, but post
You'll be fired by noon

wow, I'm seriously impressed with myself for that. if only I wasn't ripping off diablo. maybe I'll post some lymericks later

[/ QUOTE ]

Limerick you douchebag.

How's the studying going? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

damn, I had it limerick at first, then changed it

bad

brettbrettr

03-30-2005, 11:22 AM

Hand 1, I don't mind the complete considering he's a tight player limping in EP (you really should have mentioned that originally). I don't like the the c/r at all as there's no way youll be able to get 3 bets in on the flop and you're going to knowck out the BB and all the other reasons people mentioned.

Hand 2: I'd raise pre-flop and bet the flop no matter what comes. In a HU pot you've got to take some initiative.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 11:23 AM

Thanks sfer very constructive, you are right that I didn't raise what is 50/50 to be the best hand preflop, that might be a slight mistake in the long run but it's pretty close (the better argument for raising preflop that I have heard is that the bb is going to call with crap that I have dominated, now that is a good point). You're also right I shut out the big blind, he does seem terribly likely to call one bet in this example. Again thanks for dropping by to expound.

03-30-2005, 11:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks sfer very constructive, you are right that I didn't raise what is 50/50 to be the best hand preflop, that might be a slight mistake in the long run but it's pretty close (the better argument for raising preflop that I have heard is that the bb is going to call with crap that I have dominated, now that is a good point). You're also right I shut out the big blind, he does seem terribly likely to call one bet in this example. Again thanks for dropping by to expound.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like you Chris Dow
But you take things personal
Please just let it go

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 11:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I'd raise pre-flop and bet the flop no matter what comes. In a HU pot you've got to take some initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am really not buying this. I'm of the impression that most 2/4 fish mistakes are that they call too much. I can punish that more by keeping the pot small right now. I think inflating the pot in what is probably a coinflip if looked at hot/cold is just padding the pot for them and lessening the mistakes they will make later. I posted more about this in a previous post so I am definitely still looking for more input about why it is so crucial to be so aggressive in situations like these preflop and on the flop.

mr pink

03-30-2005, 11:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok so this could be wrong but I'm throwing out my response anyway. Out of position I am not going to just bet every time I am the bb and I go hu to the flop and an ace pops. I think you are misinterpreting the fold equity here because I am the bb in an unraised pot. (they aren't going to believe I have the ace) So that is my take there.

[/ QUOTE ]

can't you for once, just admit that someone other than yourself is right. he took a lot of time to write out that response and instead of reading it, thinking about it, and understanding it, you just throw it away by saying that "you are misinterpretting the fold equity here" you are the one who misinterprets the fold equity in this spot. they don't have to believe you have an ace, all they have to do is miss the flop bad enough not to call. how often do they have to fold for a bet here to show a profit?

for [censored]'s sake.

afk

03-30-2005, 11:28 AM

edit: comments for hand one
Hey Chris Dow,

I haven't read much of the thread but I think you should raise preflop (punish the open limper, and allow BB to pay if he wants to see the flop), you have the best hand here. Also I think your flop check raise is really bad - you've shut out the BB and probably scared the other guy now. Just bet out on the flop, you don't really want this to get checked around.

03-30-2005, 11:30 AM

Pinky is new here
But he's still better than most
At stating his case

spydog

03-30-2005, 11:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I do not like raising from the BB with any of these hands in this situation because it ties me into betting every flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to pick on you, but this is very weak-tight thinking. Anyone with experience playing shorthanded will bet the flop HU after raising preflop 100% of the time. They aren't doing it because it's cool. They are doing it because it's the most profitable play. Certainly, some flops are better than others, but it's still more profitable than check-folding.

Being uncomfortable in these HU situations is not unusual. But, to grow as a poker player you must recognize the profit potential in making these plays. I don't really think raising 77 in this spot is pushing a small edge. I think it's probably +.50BB EV over checking preflop.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 11:32 AM

Posts without content
With sarcasm to the brim
Lack necessity

How'd I do?

brettbrettr

03-30-2005, 11:34 AM

Your opponent open limped, already that doesn't show a great deal of strength. Once its folded to me I'm raising b/c I likely have the best hand and since more often than not the flop is going to miss both of us I'd like to be able to take it down with a flop bet.

afk

03-30-2005, 11:34 AM

For hand 2:

I raise preflop and bet pretty much any flop. You'll take it down a lot. Another option is check-raising pretty much any flop if you think your opponent will take a stab at you, but that's more risky, might get you 3bet, and can tie you to a turn bet as well. I think you're best off raising before the flop and betting the flop.

jskills

03-30-2005, 11:35 AM

Bet the flop. Not that it made much difference in that it got capped.

Sorry if you lost to the flush /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to pick on you, but this is very weak-tight thinking. Anyone with experience playing shorthanded will bet the flop HU after raising preflop 100% of the time. They aren't doing it because it's cool. They are doing it because it's the most profitable play. Certainly, some flops are better than others, but it's still more profitable than check-folding.

Being uncomfortable in these HU situations is not unusual. But, to grow as a poker player you must recognize the profit potential in making these plays. I don't really think raising 77 in this spot is pushing a small edge. I think it's probably +.50BB EV over checking preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else able to see the parts of this post that are picking on me and cause me to roll my eyes in disgust? You guys wonder why I get defensive and then proceed to call me a little weak-tight baby. Have it your way I suppose.

sfer

03-30-2005, 11:37 AM

Small Stakes
Officially and clearly
Is very teh suck

03-30-2005, 11:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Small Stakes
Officially and clearly
Is very teh suck

[/ QUOTE ]

for the last week, SS is as good as I've seen it ever

you don't know how to write haikus

afk

03-30-2005, 11:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else able to see the parts of this post that are picking on me and cause me to roll my eyes in disgust? You guys wonder why I get defensive and then proceed to call me a little weak-tight baby. Have it your way I suppose.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the internet. Take it easy, homeslice. People *gasp* say nasty things. Filter out the BS, read the actual poker content, apply it, become a better player...and profit.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 11:40 AM

Nah jskills, I'm not the type to post these hands cause I lose them, I of course won but appreciate the sympathy when similar things do happen.

crunchy1

03-30-2005, 11:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I'd raise pre-flop and bet the flop no matter what comes. In a HU pot you've got to take some initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am really not buying this. I'm of the impression that most 2/4 fish mistakes are that they call too much. I can punish that more by keeping the pot small right now. I think inflating the pot in what is probably a coinflip if looked at hot/cold is just padding the pot for them and lessening the mistakes they will make later.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you're already HU. Forcing Villian to put in an extra bet PF is not inflating the pot past the point where a 2/4 Fish will not continue to make bad calls. On the other hand - with your PF show of aggression you give Villian the added opportunity to make some incorrect folds as well as bad calls.

[ QUOTE ]
I posted more about this in a previous post so I am definitely still looking for more input about why it is so crucial to be so aggressive in situations like these preflop and on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's crucial but, aggressiveness in these situations will win you a nice share of small pots. I think you probably want to be playing aggressively at least 80% of the time (arbitrary %) and maybe limping along the other 20%. I'd limp the 20% that Villian was unknown and I'm raising any player type the other 80% because I'll have a better idea of what to do with a variety of flop textures.

FWIW - Against an unknown (your hand doesn't provide a read) I may take one stab on the flop with the A and J overcards. If I'm called or raised I'm done with the hand UI on the turn.

sfer

03-30-2005, 11:41 AM

Coach blows. I always preferred Jim Brier.

How's the studying going?

03-30-2005, 11:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Coach blows. I always preferred Jim Brier.

How's the studying going?

[/ QUOTE ]

well I didn't go to class all semester, and I studied for about 45 minutes, and it's hard, and it's in 15 minutes... so it's going great!!

spydog

03-30-2005, 11:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Anyone else able to see the parts of this post that are picking on me and cause me to roll my eyes in disgust? You guys wonder why I get defensive and then proceed to call me a little weak-tight baby. Have it your way I suppose.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't call you a weak-tight baby. I merely said that your thinking in this situation was weak-tight. Huge difference.

Look...I'm only trying to help you based on my experiences. I don't really care whether or not you take my advice.

Usually people post hands in this forum because they are unsure and are looking for feedback from good/great players. However, you seem to post hands on here and then defend your play mercilessly. Why post the hands in the first place? You won't grow as a poker player if you always think you are making the perfect play.

I love it when the majority of people disagree with my play. Why? Because I have likely identified a hole in my game and can patch it up, thereby improving my game. You don't seem to have the same attitude.

Listen....you are an intelligent guy who can gain a lot from this website. Don't risk alienating yourself because of hardheadedness.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 11:50 AM

Lacking resistance
We take the well trodden path
Though this can be wrong

spydog

03-30-2005, 11:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Lacking resistance
We take the well trodden path
Though this can be wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck to you.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 12:04 PM

You seem really disgusted I don't just submit to that line being clearly better. Neither of us is dumb here and therefore both of us should realize that with a pot that is going to be hu and is currently the amount of 1.25 BB and occurs about once every, hrmmm, 2k hands, neither preflop approach is going to cost or earn us significant money in the long run. The postflop here is important to handle well in both approaches but looks like if it is then both are going to yield approximately the same. Anyway, thanks for the input.

afk

03-30-2005, 12:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Neither of us is dumb here and therefore both of us should realize that with a pot that is going to be hu and is currently the amount of 1.25 BB and occurs about once every, hrmmm, 2k hands

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know which hand you are referring to, but these types of hands occur way more often than every 2k (you just posted two in a very short period of time). If you can win that 1.25BB a lot of the time this will significantly help you in the long run. Just because the pot is small doesn't mean it's not worth fighting over.

brettbrettr

03-30-2005, 12:10 PM

Chris,

The way I think about it is this. In a HU pot, more often than not the flop is going to miss both of you. Being aggressive is going to help you win this admittedly small pot. These small pots DO add up, and once you move to 3/6 and above you're going to find yourself in this situation more and more. Maybe not the open limp part of it, but you will have to become more aggressive and go after pots like this one.

brett

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 12:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Neither of us is dumb here and therefore both of us should realize that with a pot that is going to be hu and is currently the amount of 1.25 BB and occurs about once every, hrmmm, 2k hands

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know which hand you are referring to, but these types of hands occur way more often than every 2k (you just posted two in a very short period of time). If you can win that 1.25BB a lot of the time this will significantly help you in the long run. Just because the pot is small doesn't mean it's not worth fighting over.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am talking about specifically the limper vs your BB with a pair 77 or lower. I also have to point out that I am not contending you shouldn't fight over these pots, my line is to fight for them after the flop instead of preflop.

afk

03-30-2005, 12:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Chris,

The way I think about it is this. In a HU pot, more often than not the flop is going to miss both of you. Being aggressive is going to help you win this admittedly small pot. These small pots DO add up, and once you move to 3/6 and above you're going to find yourself in this situation more and more. Maybe not the open limp part of it, but you will have to become more aggressive and go after pots like this one.

brett

[/ QUOTE ]

An important thing to add to that is that because of hero's good starting hands, and because villains are usually looser - even if the flop "misses" both of you, you probably have the best hand way more often than not.

brettbrettr

03-30-2005, 12:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
my line is to fight for them after the flop instead of preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

There aren't very many favorable flops for your hand so starting to fight pre-flop gives you a ton of leverage/fodling equity post-flop. Assume that the flop will miss your hand completely. How are you going to win this pot? If its by betting than the best thing to do is start immediately.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 12:15 PM

I agree that aggression is necessary. My disagreement is whether you should be aggressive preflop with the small pair. I really think you guys sometimes don't read everything I'm saying. A couple times in this post I have gone into great detail about the pots I would go after postflop if I don't raise preflop with the small pair, yet we end up here with you guys just wanting to talk about how my lack of aggression will prevent success at 3/6 and beyond. I think perhaps you guys missed on that part.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 12:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my line is to fight for them after the flop instead of preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

There aren't very many favorable flops for your hand so starting to fight pre-flop gives you a ton of leverage/fodling equity post-flop. Assume that the flop will miss your hand completely. How are you going to win this pot? If its by betting than the best thing to do is start immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eeek, looks like 3 points. There are a ton of favorable flops to a hand like 77 vs one limper. Almost all flops are favorable imo. Anything ragged in any way is very favorable (K83 and the like, this constitutes a huge majority of the flops) As far as the flop missing my hand completely, since I'm starting with 77 here I'm assuming automatically that the flop will miss me completely, I don't see that as a problem and it doesn't deter me from firing out. I do plan to win the pot by betting, I'm not sure starting the betting immediately makes it easier for your opponent to fold when he misses the flop. That is what you're implying but you're just making a bigger pot right?

brettbrettr

03-30-2005, 12:19 PM

No, I am reading what you're saying. But you have to understand that I don't think you want to see the turn with a pair of sevens here. End it quickly and if you can't you're likley beat so get the hell out of dodge.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 12:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No, I am reading what you're saying. But you have to understand that I don't think you want to see the turn with a pair of sevens here. End it quickly and if you can't you're likley beat so get the hell out of dodge.

[/ QUOTE ]

See this is where I get confused about whether or not you are reading what I'm writing. I completely agree that we do not want to see the turn. I don't think either line is more likely to see the turn than the other.

brettbrettr

03-30-2005, 12:25 PM

By betting you're not bloating the pot. Its not as if you have 4 guys who now have to call a raise where they already called one bet. You're buying a little leverage, thats all. When your hand is vulnerable but often best in a HU pot you've just got to bet.

You should play the 6 max tables. It'll do wonders for your game...

brettbrettr

03-30-2005, 12:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I am reading what you're saying. But you have to understand that I don't think you want to see the turn with a pair of sevens here. End it quickly and if you can't you're likley beat so get the hell out of dodge.

[/ QUOTE ]

See this is where I get confused about whether or not you are reading what I'm writing. I completely agree that we do not want to see the turn. I don't think either line is more likely to see the turn than the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think the limper is more likely to fold against a BB who raised prelfop and bet the flop than one who didn't raise preflop? I think you've argued yourself into a corner here....

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 12:27 PM

Perhaps it can even be stated another way. Both of us agree that we want to bet the flop and get him to fold. So on most flops we are both betting. On your flops the pot is bigger and we have invested more preflop. On my flops its smaller and we have invested less preflop. Do you think these factors change whether or not he calls the flop bet? I'd say clearly if he's paired he's calling in either case. I think that if he flops a gutshot draw he is more likely to call the flop in your case than in mine. We don't want him to call the flop because then our small pair looks like crap and we can't keep up the aggression because we pretty much have to assume we're behind. So it's better for us when he folds. Even when he does call on a gutshot draw however he is making the bigger mistake vs me than you because the pot is smaller and thus not padding his odds as well. On top of that when he calls with the gutshot and we give up, and check fold the turn, I have made less mistake because I am folding the best hand in a smaller pot than you are.

I'm not trying to throw reasons out just to argue, are these not valid points? Does the hand typically play out differently when you raise preflop out of the BB that makes it very favorable for you?

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 12:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think the limper is more likely to fold against a BB who raised prelfop and bet the flop than one who didn't raise preflop? I think you've argued yourself into a corner here....

[/ QUOTE ]

I am saying that I don't think it's a very big difference at all, you are 100% correct there. I think the limper is more likely to call with any sort of draw when you raise, which negates any benefit that showing strength has.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 12:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You should play the 6 max tables. It'll do wonders for your game...

[/ QUOTE ]

See it is when you people say things like this that I get most annoyed. You are implying that I can't or haven't done something that I have, and you have no way of knowing that but make the assumption anyway. Would it matter if I told you that I easily beat the 5/10 6 max?

brettbrettr

03-30-2005, 12:32 PM

The flop comes AK8, you think he's calling with 89? How he has a gutshot is beyond me, how he's calling is beyond me. I think youll find this easier if you stick to the situations at hand AND start providing reads in your posts.

I've got work to do but you should go read the HUSH forums. They'll help you immensely.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 12:33 PM

Yup, that's it alright.

SomethingClever

03-30-2005, 12:36 PM

I'm sure this is being debated, but this is the perfect time to raise preflop with this hand.

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 12:37 PM

The KJ has definitely been proven to be in need of a preflop raise, the 77 not so much.

SomethingClever

03-30-2005, 12:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The KJ has definitely been proven to be in need of a preflop raise, the 77 not so much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. Lemme go read that one.

...

I raise that one too. And I'm considered weak-tight!

Chris Dow

03-30-2005, 12:44 PM

Yeah, I think the question is "need." The EV looks very close whether or not you raise the 77 preflop as long as you go after the pot a large % of the time postflop. With the KJ the raise preflop is necessary in order to allow the BB to make the mistake of putting in another bet for you with his crappy kings and jacks and crappy anything else too.

crunchy1

03-30-2005, 12:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps it can even be stated another way. Both of us agree that we want to bet the flop and get him to fold. So on most flops we are both betting. On your flops the pot is bigger and we have invested more preflop. On my flops its smaller and we have invested less preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're largely over-valuing the significance of one extra small bet in a HU pot.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think these factors change whether or not he calls the flop bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Which factor? The size of the pot - NO. The fact that you showed/failed-to-show aggression out of the BB PF - YES.

A key factor that is missing from the discussion of this hand is the range of hands that MP is limping with here. Put him on a range of hands that any average player will limp, first-in with from MP. You'll quickly see why raising PF is the correct play.