New to pot limit: Quads played bad

[rigoletto]

I'm new to pot limit and believe i missed some bets on this hand:

LL online. Table is tight after the flop. I,m dealt red 4'rs LP. UTG+1 calls, I call, SB completes and BB checks.

*** FLOP *** [Qd Js 4s]

BB bets minimum, UTG+1 raises minimum, I just call (mistake?), SB folds and BB calls

*** TURN *** [Qd Js 4s] [4d]

I now have quads /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif . BB folds (timeout), heads up, UTG+1 bets about ½ the pot, again I just call for fear of UTG folding.

*** RIVER *** [Qd Js 4s 4d] [8h]

UTG+1 bets about a 1/4 pot, I raise ½ a pot, he calls and mucks.

I feel I played this horribly. Should have raised the flop and bet ½ pot on the turn? Any comments welcome and also pointers to material about pot limit.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

There are reasons to slow-play and reasons to fast-play. Here are some that are relevant to this hand.

In terms of playing fast, it seems less likely this guy is bluffing, as that is a tough board to bluff. Many hands that usually get played like this flop at least a little bit. So, if he isn't bluffing, then you can raise and often get called. And, if they have a draw and fold, on the flop at least, that's just fine for your hand.

Another reason to play fast is that a card can come that will kill your action. In this case, the 8 on the river made a straight if you were playing T9. If I had AQ and was pushing top pair, top kicker, the 8 on the river might convince me to give it up, or at least give it up without putting too much more money in the pot. Similarly, any 9, T, J, K, or A is a scare card for me, as well as any spade. In that situation, by waiting to the river, you might lose me when a scare card hits.

Similarly, if I'm on the draw, such as T9 or KT or spades, I will fold the river if I miss. However, I might have put in more money to try and make my draw if you had raised the turn.

On the flip side, I might fold a draw on the turn if you raise or bet too much, while if you let me make my hand for free, I will put all my money in on the river.

You need to read my hand well, and figure out on what street you can get me to put too much money in the pot, and put in your action at that time. Easier said than done.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[qwerty]

Your objective here is for you or your opponent to go all in. As you don’t give the stack sizes, it is impossible to tell you how to try to do so.

As Greg pointed out, there are very good reasons to play a hand like that fast. Of course, you could make your opponent fold, but you could also win a very big pot, something that is difficult to do if you slow play.

You can find good information about slow playing in an old post by Natdogg titled "Slowplaying", Posted on 30 October 2001.
An other good article about this by the same author is "no limit myths", posted in august 2001. Consult the archives.

There are often posts here about how to play quads, or strait-flushes, and the answers often go: you should have bet the pot here, or check-raises there or something like that. I think advice like that is a bit superficial: the correct way to play the nuts depends heavily on how you play you average hands. You cant just fold check call check fold call check fold and then come betting like a maniac when you have the nuts. You have to have an integrated game plan where the way you bluff, and the way you play your average hands allows you to make a lot of $ on your very good hands. (Comments anyone?). Greg for example plays very lose aggressive, playing a lot of trash, bluffing a lot of trash, but this allows him to win very big pots when he does have a good hand. (At least, that’s what comes out of his posts here. I hope I am not caricaturing too much). I don’t think a style such as that is suited for everyone, but it is a good example of an integrated game plan.

Disclaimer: I don’t play well /forums/images/icons/frown.gif , do not take my posts too seriously.

Qwerty

[rigoletto]

Thank you for the replies. I'm a little ahead after 30 hrs of pot limit play (guess I should be thankfull for that - it's also a very soft game I'm in) and I continue to get some experience and post some hands here.

Excellent post. I find I get paid off despite being tighter in starting requirements than most of my tables - because when I do play a hand I most often bet every street whether I have hit anything or not. Not the world's most sophisticated strategy I will agree.

Qwerty is bang on about needing an integrated game plan and it being hard to say what to do without knowing the stack sizes.

Having said that I think at the very least your call after the flop is hard to justify, you should raise. You probably have the best hand but there are a lot of possible drawing hands out there and letting them in for the minimum is just asking for trouble.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Why, I don't play like that at all. I fold preflop 99% of the time, and NEVER bluff. Really. ;-)

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)