rivered like a little bitch, but now what?

[technologic]

i really messed this one up i think...

party poker POT LIMIT 1/2

i have around 200 behind, villain has around 150.

i pick up JJ in the sb, 3 limpers, i call.

flop 626, checked around.

turn 7, i bet 8, bb folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, button (villain) min raises to 16, i call, MP3 calls, CO calls.

river J. pot stands around 72, villain has around 130ish.

i? and post reasoning please.

[wrto4556]

weak lead?

Try and get him to raise a small bet so you can put him all in.

EDIT: also doesn't get checked through if you try a C/r and you're guaranteed a call.

[technologic]

how small of a bet? and wouldn't a check suffice, since he's not betting anything that's weak, but betting anything that's strong? ie a 6.

[BobboFitos]

move in

haha just kidding saw the pot limit...


checkraise all in, he is betting any 6 / underfull, if he's min raising you on the turn with a small pair it's unlikely he'd call much anyways.

Also i'd consider betting hte flop, but I guess you were playing for set value

[technologic]

i was considering CRing the flop, but i guess that didn't really work out. i wanted to see how the others reacted to the flop before i took action in a 5 handed pot.

[wrto4556]

It would be a disaster if he's trying to make a play with 99 or something and checks it through on the river for a cheap showdown.

1. He could be weak.
2. He could be strong

(1) By checking you get nothing on the river. He might bet but fold to a C/r. If you bet small (im not sure how small small is...1/4 pot?) he's calling because it would be a disaster to give up the pot.
(2) By checking you get a large check raise in. By betting and him raising, you get all of his chips.

[Huskiez]

I like a check raise all in best. You have to figure Button will fire with any hand he will call a big bet with, and he might also bet out some sort of bluff with a missed draw if that is what he had. It also lets you get all your chips in. I like this better than a full pot bet because it's unlikely you have a bluff betting into the field.

Another alternative is a weak lead that could be raised, but that depends on your read on Button.

Whatever you do, don't bet something like 30. It's too strong to be raised, too weak to extract value, and perhaps too much to be called by a weak hand.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]

Whatever you do, don't bet something like 30. It's too strong to be raised, too weak to extract value, and perhaps too much to be called by a weak hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting. I was going to suggest 30 precisely. I think that is looks exactly like a blocking bet from a medium strength hand which has some chance of calling a raise from villain's likely full house. I also think it is weak enough to be called by a weak hand. I'm sure the answer is that it is opponent dependent, but I wonder what other people think against an unknown here.

FWIW, I definitely think check/raise is the worst option. No way someone is bluffing into this board, I don't think so you won't gain from someone taking a stab at it. Hands which may call 30 will check behind. If he has a full house, which is the only hand that is going to call a check/raise here, then he will most likely raise it up himself if you bet 30.

[joewatch]

Why not pot it? There is no way that he puts you on JJ, and I think villain is likely to have 6X, 22, maybe even 67. In pot limit, you have to build pots, so check-raise is almost never correct (vs NL).

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
i was considering CRing the flop, but i guess that didn't really work out. i wanted to see how the others reacted to the flop before i took action in a 5 handed pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

C/r this flop is ver ybad. You lose the most vs trips: what do you do on the turn if they call? what else CAN they call you with on the flop? c/r bloats the pot to the point that if they play on you lose alot of money.

I'd rather bet out. you can get value from lesser hands + protect your hand from giving a free draw to Q K A

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
If he has a full house, which is the only hand that is going to call a check/raise here, then he will most likely raise it up himself if you bet 30

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right

but villain is button, cant he had A6 or K6s? That calls a river c/r.

[xorbie]

I agree completely. This is a great flop for JJ because you lead out and can fold if raised (without a read that they will raise with TT or less here).

The way this hand played though I would lead the river for about 20. It's just enough to let the guy get all in, get's called by TT/99, and may even look weak enough to get raised on a pure buff.

[technologic]

you wouldn't advocate a CR against a button bet? or a stop and go?

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
you wouldn't advocate a CR against a button bet? or a stop and go?

[/ QUOTE ]
Umm...either I'm confused or you are. I think I've only been talking about the river. So I laid out why I don't like a CR and a stop and go doesn't apply to the river, so I think you must be talking about something else. The flop?

[technologic]

yea...heh.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Check/raise is terrible on the flop, IMO. It creates a big pot when you are either way ahead or way behind. I think betting is fine and check/call is fine. Whichever will be more likely to get more money in when you are ahead. I.e. if these guys are all non-believing calling stations who would slowplay open trips, then bet out and let them call with overcards/lower pocket pairs. If they are aggressive guys who will bluff raise a paired board if you bet and will take a shot at it if you check it to them, then check/call is best. Check/raising seems to only lose the most when behind and win the least when ahead. If they are aggressive enough to take a stab at it, then check/call flop, check/call turn, bet river is a much better line than check/raise flop and it costs the same. It also disguises your hand. No one raised preflop, so we can discount AA-QQ (although of course not rule out entirely). But hands like KQ, AJ, AT, TT-22, SCs are pretty likely. So you want to take the line that will maximize EV against that range of hands. Check/raising the flop is definitely not that line.

[poker17]

Bet around 20. This way you also have the possibility of MP3 and CO getting caught in the hand. Buttons mini-raise makes a boat much more likely than a strong 6. Either way he is likely to raise, then you reraise allin. You also dont want to risk the hand being checked through.

[technologic]

once a CR is called on that flop, i'm probably done with that hand...it's probably to prevent someone from stealing the pot? if i check raise and get called, i'm almost certain that villain has either a flush draw or a 6, and i check a blank turn to see which it was. i feel like a check call line can lose more money, because when will you stop check calling? the river? also check raising will prevent overcards from getting another card for free?

in any case, i ended up betting 30 on the river, other two folded, villain calls and shows A6.

[Yeknom58]

I probably bet this flop a majority of the time...but with so many people in the pot I would also consider check calling flop/leading turn, mattering on the action of course.

For the river..I like a CR or a weak lead of about 20-25..but I suspect they both collect the same amount of money in the long run.

[jskills]

Dumb questions:

Why not raise preflop?

Why not bet the flop? By checking, you could be giving overcards a chance to draw to a higher pair for nothing.

On the river, it's kind of a toss up in betting half the pot or the pot. Hopefully he comes over the top. Not betting at all is way to risky that he'll check behind. You must make him pay to see your hand.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
in any case, i ended up betting 30 on the river, other two folded, villain calls and shows A6.

[/ QUOTE ]
I still think that's the better play. Villain played his hand like a complete donk. If he had been a better player, I think you make more money by betting than by check/raising. Had I known this guy was a complete monkey, check/raising might have been better because he is more likely to have some random 6 that he was slowplaying rather than a full house like a more normal person. And he is more likely to call a check/raise with a 6. Still, I like the way you played it.