Fun w/ ATo

[The Dude]

(sorry Scott)

Party Poker 3-6. Typical assortment of Party Poker fish. The SB in this hand is new at the table, this is his first orbit. I have no prior stats with him.

Preflop: CO and LMP post blinds.
3 Limpers to The Dude in MP who limps w/ A/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. The posters check, button folds, SB raises, BB and everybody call.

Flop: (15.5 SBs) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(8 Players)</font>
SB bets out, MP calls, The Dude raises. CO calls, SB 3-bets, everyone calls.

Turn: (13.5 BBs) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 Players)</font>
SB bets, MP calls, The Dude raises, CO calls, SB calls, MP calls. At this point The Dude is planning on checking any river that is not an A or T.

River: (21.5 BBs) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(8 Players)</font>
Checked to The Dude who bets, CO folds, SB calls, MP calls.

[ErrantNight]

i like it. did you have any particular questions?

[The Dude]

"Is this your homework, Larry?"

[nolanfan34]

Heh heh.

I'd be pretty excited to raise those posters with this hand PF. Maybe that's not optimal based on the number of limpers though.

I like the turn line, personally. After the CO calls two cold on the flop, that sure looks like some sort of flush draw, and he's likely to call two cold again on a non-turn diamond IMO.

I'm guessing that you are maybe wondering about the turn line? Based on your river plan, I like it at least.

[ErrantNight]

See what happens when you [censored] a complete stranger in the ass? Do you see what happens, Larry? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2029221&amp;page=0&amp;view=e xpanded&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=)

[Chris Daddy Cool]

this hand isn't that fun... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[The Dude]

Shut the [censored] up, Donny.

[bakku]

Seriously.

He's out of his element.

[The Dude]

How many people here raise preflop? How many people only call down on the turn?

[DMBFan23]

a question I have is do you still raise the turn after being 3 bet on the flop if the flop is not two toned in diamonds?

my first instinct is no.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
How many people here raise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do.

The rest of the hand looks good.

Rob

[wrto4556]

Explain why you raised the turn and what you do if you're 3-bet?

PS. I raise preflop.

[Chris Dow]

He raised the turn to check any non-ace non-ten river. I think it's more like any non-ten river which makes it seem sketchy. As far as getting 3 bet, you start to cry. I think you have to draw to a ten for one more bet but I dunno if you really want to see it come down. By the time he 3-bets the turn on you the ten might not be enough.

[ErrantNight]

the presence of the poster makes it easier to limp along, IMO. it makes it less likely that a raise can buy the button, which would be a primary reason to raise.

i'm fine with the turn raise, although I hafta admit I wouldn't have blinked had you called. you'd love to fold some hands with outs, and it might buy you a free showdown. what's your plan if you get 3-bet?

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
How many people here raise preflop? How many people only call down on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even play this hand pf from your position with the limpers. Maybe it's value I'm giving up but I just don't like playing this hand. With the dead money generated by the posters it would be a good idea to raise it up pf. As for the turn I just call, but I can see value in raising to make the flush draws pay 2 big bets to see the river while you have tpgk. I would also check behind on the river without improvment.

[me454555]

I call the turn unless I knew sb to be a lag

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
How many people here raise preflop? How many people only call down on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oddly I'd 3 bet the dude on the turn with just about any two cards here.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Oddly I'd 3 bet the dude on the turn with just about any two cards here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't you remember what happened the only time you tried to push me off a hand?

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
do you still raise the turn after being 3 bet on the flop if the flop is not two toned in diamonds?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it's certainly possible that the SB has a hand like K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and that makes raising here better - also because the hoser to my left could be on a flush draw, so he'll pay two bets on the turn, but no bets on the flop.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
what's your plan if you get 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Tuck tail and run. Villian won't be reraising any one-pair hands on the turn, so if he does it looks pretty much like AA. I'm not even sure A9s is reraising me, although I admit it's a possibility.

You have too much fun.

Coach

[Chris Dow]

[ QUOTE ]
You have too much fun.

Coach

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, I agree.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
You have too much fun.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well that's like... your opinion man.

[Trix]

I dont get the flopraise.

He is betting into 8 players, so you are probably beat and even if you think you need to get 3bet to figure it out, then the info wont really help you as the pot will get way too big to fold then...

So it must be for value ? , just dont see much value in it..

I like every other street, unless he has AA you will get a free showdown.

[chesspain]

I think that the entire "raising the turn for a free showdown" is misguided here. Although SB could have K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, his raise PF and bet/3-bet on the flop is much more likely to mean "bigger ace."

Consequently, the only real reason I see to raising this turn is to push out CO, although it's difficult to see what hand he could have, that you want him to fold, that could move ahead of you on the river. In fact, getting the [hopefully] free showdown is just a benefit of the raise to knock out the CO--it shouldn't be the motivation for it.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
He is betting into 8 players, so you are probably beat

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with that at all. There are a bunch of reasons he could be betting here, including the simple fact that he rasied preflop.

[The Dude]

Your thinking is a bit clouded here. I'm not raising just to drive out CO, I'm raising because if he does have a flush draw, or OESD, he'll pay two bets on the turn and none on the river. So raising here and checking behind on the river costs me the same, but the CO twice as much. Also, I get another bet in when I hit my T on the river. Note: all my Ts are likely to be good, since the one in my hand is a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Also, my raise very well could be for value here. SB could have K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, or any other draw he felt like raising preflop in a family pot. In that case, it's more likely CO could have a hand like Axs, in which case I'm probably ahead, and would like him to call two more cold, instead of getting an easy call when he's got 3 outs.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Your thinking is a bit clouded here. I'm not raising just to drive out CO, I'm raising because if he does have a flush draw, or OESD...

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that CO had a random hand, but I think that the assumption that could have 35/57 is a bit fanciful.


[ QUOTE ]
Also, my raise very well could be for value here. SB could have K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, or any other draw he felt like raising preflop in a family pot. In that case, it's more likely CO could have a hand like Axs, in which case I'm probably ahead, and would like him to call two more cold, instead of getting an easy call when he's got 3 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whereas the above is possible, I hold to my belief that it is way more likely that you are behind on this turn and this raise is not for value.

Consequently, you need to decide--is the raise for value, or for a free showdown?

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Consequently, you need to decide--is the raise for value, or for a free showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do I need to decide? I pay the same number of bets when I'm behind, and I win more when I'm ahead (however likely or unlikely that may be) or imporve. Why do I have to know which it is?

It's like when your heads up on a flop that's Kxx monotone. You've got TT w/ a flush draw and the guy bets into you. He could have a K or a flush draw, you don't know. So you decide to call down, whether the flush card comes or not. Does it matter if you know whether your pair is good or if you need the flush card? No, you'll be ahead in the long run enough to call down, you don't need to know which he has.

[bookie socks]

The CO could have had 7d/8d.

[Catt]

I raise pre-flop too.

Is your limp because: (1) ATo plays better against a few or many hands, but not a "handful" of hands; and (2) unlikely to buy the button with two posters behind? You limp expecting to play the hand for a less likely straight / set / flopped two pair hand that has a lot of strength against a larger field but can ditch easily if, say, you flop a T and a non-A overcard and there's action in front of you?

Curious about your thinking on the pf limp . . .

[GrunchCan]

So, lemme get this straight.

You raise the turn b/c the presense of the CO and his possible FD mean you have an equity edge in the hand? If the CO wasn't present on the turn (eg, its HU), you just call down?

And BTW to those of you advocating a "free showdown," that doesn't make any sense to me at all. It's not any more free than just calling down - you still pay 2 BB. How can it be to your advantage to put them both in on the turn? Besides, its potentially less free than just calling down, b/c by raising the turn you expose yourself to a reraise.

Edit to add that I definitely don't openlimp ATo in MP with 2 posters behind me. I openraise if I'm playing - and with the posters, I'm definitely playing. I raise PF.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit to add that I definitely don't openlimp ATo in MP with 2 posters behind me. I openraise if I'm playing - and with the posters, I'm definitely playing. I raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 3 limpers ahead of The Dude, and 2 posters and the blinds behind.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Edit to add that I definitely don't openlimp ATo in MP with 2 posters behind me. I openraise if I'm playing - and with the posters, I'm definitely playing. I raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 3 limpers ahead of The Dude, and 2 posters and the blinds behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, missed that. I don't PFR in that case.