PL Omaha high hand.

[Guy McSucker]

Here's a pot which I won, against all the odds. I'd like some comments on my play on all streets, and also on what on earth you think was going on in this pot.

PLO game online, $1 big blind.

I get ATT3 under the gun, AT suited. I call the $1 since there's a good chance it won't be heavily raised behind me, and there are lots of $100+ stacks around and some loose post-flop players.

5 others call, SB folds for 50c (!) and BB checks. $7.50 in pot.

Flop JQK, two clubs. I have the Tc but not the flush. I have the nuts at the moment.

BB bets the pot.

I immediately fear being freerolled, and there are lots of players behind me, so I strongly consider folding but call anyway. Comments?

Against a set and a flush draw I'm only 40% to have the best hand at the river, and may be splitting it even if my hand is good. On the other hand, I have two tens, so being freerolled is a little less likely than usual.

One more caller, and the cutoff raises the max. BB calls.

Now I'm confused. Surely they can't both be freerolling me? And there's the other player to think about. Some of the money must be dead. Nevertheless I probably shouldn't call.

I call. Comments?

Player behind me also calls and we see 4th street:

[KQJ] Th

BB checks.

For sure I'm tied now, but what on earth was happening on the flop? I now have a set which cuts down the redraw possibilities somewhat, but surely I can't bet now when I must be tied.

BB checks, I check, we all check. Huh?

River is an offsuit 8, so my hand held up. I make a genuine 100% mistake and bet out.

Everyone else folds. Explain that!

Guy.

[Ray Zee]

you should have folded before the flop. you are justifying playing poorly with reasoning. then you get the perfect flop and dont want to play the hand anymore. what did you put your money in the first place for. hoping to hit quads?
you lucked out because your opponents have no clue to this game.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Not disagreeing with you Ray. But, since the players are really that bad, wouldn't you call with his hand preflop?

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Guy McSucker]

Ray,

You say that I "justify poor play with reasoning". So is my reasoning flawed? Pretend for now that I can play properly post-flop...

Preflop I realise this is a dodgy hand. Still, it has some nut potential and one can often get paid off quite well in these games. That's the reasoning. What's wrong?

On the button, I would call an unraised pot 100% of the time in a game like this. Do you disagree?

My worry on the flop was that my hand is going nowhere: if I'm tied, I can't possibly improve (barring runner-runner). In these online games, it's often the case that many people will take off a card on the flop if they've got something, even a small flush draw, even to a bet and a raise.

So having flopped the nuts, sure I'll bet if checked to. I'm not completely terrified here. But when a player bets into me, and my hand can't possibly improve, I've been tending to call and try to take a non-threatening card off.

Is that so horrible? If so, I'd like to know why.

On 4th street I'm sure I must be tied. Any A-big ties me. On the other hand I have the nuts. How would you play it?

I'm sure betting the river was a vast mistake. Do you agree?
(However, there is the possibility that someone who tied my hand folded. Seems unlikely.)

Guy.

[Ray Zee]

i think what i first said answers all your questions if you think about it.
as for betting the river. if you check the nuts you only make money if someone bluffs. and who would bluff into that board with multiway players. if you make a smaller bet you get called by bad players that cant throw away something that looks good. like maybe a 9/7 that just made them a small straight. remember it was checked on 4th street so one might reason there isnt a nut straight out there.

[Ray Zee]

i wouldnt. but then again i dont see very many flops that i could play profitably from up front here. look what happened to Guy. he hit one of his best flops and he couldnt even find a way to make money with it without likely risking going broke. i wouldnt have been able to either. playing this hand up front also means a person plays many other bad hands from bad spots and will not win in the long run for sure. for instance since played up front it is logical to play a worse hand from the next spot. what hand worse than this would you play from two utg. how about three or four. get the drift. i would be hard pressed to want to put anything in with this hand even on the button. unless i was in a game where if i made the nut flush i could count on doubling up from a weaker one. but i havent really seen this kind of game.

[Guy McSucker]

Ray,

Thank you very much for your most recent two posts in this thread. I think I misunderstood you a little bit in your first post.

I thought you were criticising my post-flop play pretty heavily, which could be fair enough, but now I'm thinking that your opinion is that the starting hand itself is so bad that I'm almost bound to have difficulties post-flop regardless of what comes.

Is that right?

I realised it wasn't a great hand, but didn't put it in the super-awful category; although I can't actually think of a worse hand that I would play.

Guess I need to re-evaluate a little.

By the way, my stats indicate that I see the flop around 40% of the time, compared to a table average of more like 60%. So is that too loose? I've been trying to loosen up if anything, and this hand was one of my loose calls.

Guy.

[Mark W]

Ray,
What if Guy had same hand, On the button with a single bet to call?

Thank you,

Mark Williams

[Greg (FossilMan)]

> for instance since played up front it is logical to play
> a worse hand from the next spot. what hand worse than
> this would you play from two utg. how about three or
> four. get the drift.

Yes. However, if it were correct to play this hand up front, the weaker hands (of similar character) that I might play a few spots out would not include TT with a suited Q, but more like 88 with a suited A. Thus, I would still want the flush to be the nuts, but might play the smaller pairs.

> i would be hard pressed to want to put anything in with
> this hand even on the button. unless i was in a game
> where if i made the nut flush i could count on doubling
> up from a weaker one. but i havent really seen this kind
> of game.

I take it you haven't played online yet. Maybe you never will, and there could be plenty of good reasons for that decision. However, given the small blinds ($1,2 is the biggest I'm aware of) and the anonymous nature (meaning they're less worried about being embarrassed when making a bad play) of the game, the play is typically very poor. Poor enough that it makes up for the fact that you can't "read" the opponent. Poor enough that the swings are huge, also.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Ray Zee]

Guy, depending on how well you play and how badly they play you need to cut down on the amount of hands you enter the pot with by a large amount. i would try cutting it by 2/3 to start and see what happens. unless you get a free ride in the blinds about once per round at the table might be closer. especially in loose games where you cant win by buying the pot.

[Ray Zee]

mark, i answered that even if you cant believe your eyes.

[Ray Zee]

greg, you ideas are way too loose for this game. maybe it works for you where you play but it isnt going to last. you cant play those kind of hands in pot limit and survive, unless you can make up for it somewhere else.
as for online ,yes i know very little about the games there. but what difference does it make if they play extra poorly if you go and play like them. those hands are money losers in all games. as far as i am concerned. if you or anyone else can make a profit playing them thats great, but i cant and wont try. in omaham when up front in a game you will have a hard time making money with the nuts, but trying to make money with garbage is suicide imho.
in a tight game where you can blow people out at will then this all changes, as then you see me in lots of pots.

[Mark W]

yea just caught that. Thanks for not replying in a civil way. It's always nice to to contend with a Jerk 1st thing in the morning

[Ray Zee]

i dont know what you mean but i guess its best you dont reply to my posts and i will do the same.

[Mark W]

Upon further reflection I guess I was mistaken. It is easy to read somthing in the written word and take it wrong. My sinsere apologies and I am sure I offended, but should have held back. The couple times that we have been at the same table we have always been cordial. As a matter of a fact, I am often receive flack at the table from ones that are on a bad run because I am always having fun regardless of my present success. Once agin please except my apology and deal.

Mark