zaxx19 says "Get out of the Kiddie Pool and make some moves", so I do

[KowCiller]

Ok here we go. My typical game, $2-$5 $200max Live at local B&M.

UTG is a very tough opponent. He's the best player at the table and probably best in the whole room.

MP1 is an uberfish. UTG and I have been torturing everyone at the table. I have MP1 pegged as weak bet == weak hand. And I've check-raised him to take pots away from him when observing this.

Stacks:
Me: $375
UTG: $300
MP1: $250

Hero is on the button with 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

UTG limps, folds to MP1 who limps, CO limps, I call on the button, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop ($25) 5 players

K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks, UTG bets $20. MP1 calls. CO folds, I call, BB folds.

Turn ($85) Q /images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG checks, MP1 bets $15, I call, UTG calls.

River ($130) 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG checks, MP1 checks, I bet $100.

All thoughts appreciated.

KoW

[mishafp]

I like your play- obviously you are a little worried about UTG setting you up for a check raise, but you played this exactly like you are on a flush draw, so unless he has the nut flush, he is gonna have trouble calling it (plus, unless you have a very loose table image, i dont think he checks this river if he has hit the nut flush). My big worry is that the fish will make a frustrated King, bad kicker call, not even seeing the flush out there. In general, if you had a good feel for these guys, its a nice move to make.

The only seroius issue I have is with your flop call. The implied odds might be there, but two of your outs are hearts, which means you might not be able to capitalize or you might get really beat up.... i think that a pretty loose call.

[BoxTree]

If your read on MP1 is correct, you should take this down without a problem.

Of course, you could just check behind and give up the hand. But I think this is a pretty good move given the action, the board, and your reads.

On a side note, that must be a pretty tough game: if you and UTG each bought in for $200 and you're both "torturing" everyone, how come your stacks are so small? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
On a side note, that must be a pretty tough game: if you and UTG each bought in for $200 and you're both "torturing" everyone, how come your stacks are so small?

[/ QUOTE ]

After i submitted this, I figured that someone would point that out. I guess most of the torturing must have happened after this hand. By the end of the night we were doing some severe "pwnage" /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I probably should have just left that line out. Oh well.

[TheWorstPlayer]

First of all, I fold the flop with the heart draw out, but whatever. Let's get to the river.

Hmm...I'm not sure how much I like it. I find it pretty hard to put a very good UTG on a hand to play like this. He bets into a crowd on the flop. Then he checks the turn. Looks like he is check/folding the turn but can't fold for that small a bet. Otherwise, he may have been betting the heart draw and decided not to fire again since the pot is still multi-way. Then he checks the river. So he is either continuing with his plan of check/folding to a real bet or he is check/raising after hitting his heart. The check/raise is risky, though, becuase MP probably has a bad king or maybe even a queen and you have shown no strength so I would put you on either the OESD or the flush draw. If you have the flush draw and he has the nuts, a check/raise would be a good play and you won't call a bet with a busted straight draw anyways, but if I were in his position holding the nuts I would just bet out and hope to get called by your smaller flush (if you have one) and MPs weak king since I wouldn't expect you to come alive on the river without the flush and the odds of both of you being on the flush draw are small. So, once he checks the river I doubt he is check/raising and therefore I think he is check/folding. You just have to bet enough to get rid of MPs weak king or queen and I think you have done that. So I like it.

[tbach24]

Raise the turn. I don't think that UTG could overcall there with many hands and therefore will define his hand very well. This all depends on MP2's wanting to give up the hand after his weak bet. I played with a kid the other night who would bet 2$ on every street with bottom pair and so I called down to the river with ace high intending to bluff, but when I raised big, he decided he liked his hand.

[joewatch]

At these limits:
Preflop - consider raising on the button with small suited connectors.
Flop - strongly consider semi-bluff raise (fold to reraise since this = set)
Turn call is fine since you are drawing cheaply to your str8. I would never raise here since MP1 is likely to have a set or KQ, and I want to see the river.
River - this bluff is so read dependent. Either push, or bet as little as possible that you think will fold your opponents. UTG be attempting to CR MP1 so you could be in trouble.

[soah]

Eh? When was this hand played? I didn't see you there today. I guess it was last night. UTG's play baffles me, although it would help to know who it was. If he calls you on the river there (and has no flush) then I'll have to say that you need to reconsider who you consider to be the best player in the room. As for MP1, he sounds like he's too clueless to put you on a flush, so I guess it comes down to your read of how weak his hand is.

[RiverFenix]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn call is fine since you are drawing cheaply to your str8. I would never raise here since MP1 is likely to have a set or KQ, and I want to see the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
MP1 doesnt have either of those hands if read is correct since his bet is so weak.

I like a raise on the turn, but it all depends on when you want to take down the pot really as no one is really representing anything call worthy.

[KowCiller]

This was a hand from this weekend. UTG was Jason. It was a very weird line for him to take.

KoW

[Tilt]

Im not sure that this is what Zaxx had in mind when he said "make moves". You want to make moves, raise that SC on the button and fire at the flop. If you represent AK here both preflop and postflop you probably take down a decent pot with less risk.

I don't like your flat calls on two streets at all.

Given where you ended up, though...I like the river bluff here, but against 2 players you are only about 50-50 to get the fold you want - alot of the rest of the time you will crash into the nuts. You almost wish, however, that you didnt have position to pull it off, cause its so much less believable that way.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like your flat calls on two streets at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

What better way to represent a draw than call, call, bet when the draw hits.

The way I see it, I've got 15 outs twice to win this thing. I cannot put UTG or MP1 on hearts...based on the flop and turn action.

[ QUOTE ]
alot of the rest of the time you will crash into the nuts

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on the flop/turn/river action, which player do you think has the nuts?

[ QUOTE ]
almost wish, however, that you didnt have position to pull it off, cause its so much less believable that way

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you clarify this? I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.

Thanks for the responses.

KoW

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]

What better way to represent a draw than call, call, bet when the draw hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

You had a draw. You perceived weakness. Take it down earlier IMO. But since its a weak draw you should just fold. Though granted with reads and a plan to take it down without hitting its ok. I'd rather raise it in in position though, since that represents the flush draw better to me in a multiway pot against thoughtful players (that may not be the case here).
[ QUOTE ]

Based on the flop/turn/river action, which player do you think has the nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say that I did thuink they have the nuts. But sometimes they will. Both UTG and MP took lines that could be heart draws, all reads aside. Som percentage of the time they will have the goods.

My comment on position is simple...if you were betting into the field when the heart hit rather than after two checks that would strike me as a more believable representation of the flush. Or a large c/r (very risky) would work as well, but I probably would never do that without crystal reads due to the large expense involved. Also that would require an opponent capable of laying down to a c/r.

[soah]

The way Jason played the flop/turn it's tempting to put him on a flush draw, but I think he'd usually bet the river when he hits. But then again, he likes to trap people and might have decided to let the clueless guy fire at the pot again. The only other hands that makes sense for him are AK or AA. He won't play a big pot with one pair though, so if he does have this you should be able to move him off of it by showing aggression at any point in the hand. I think you may have been better off raising the turn.

[Kaz The Original]

I like this more heads up, without the retard, but none the less this is good.

I don't understand people that want you to take it down earlier. Wait til the flush hits, it's much easier for your opponents to fold that way.

[tripdad]

my only reservation for your play is for the fact that MP1 is such a weak player. normally, when you have position, and draw to your hand and make it on the river, you wouldn't bet so much when they check to you. you'd normally want to make a bet that could easily be called. i think you took care of that problem by betting more than typical.

the downside of inducing MP1 to fold is that now, when you in essence overbet here, UTG may sense you are making a play for the pot, and could check/raise with very little here knowing the weak player in between will fold nearly every time.

cheers!

[soah]

UTG is *extremely* unlikely to invest his entire stack here trying to bluff two players out of the pot. Actually, that doesn't even make sense given his range of hands. If he made his flush he wouldn't be bluffing, and if he has AK or AA he would just call if he believes he has the best hand. This guy likes to make laydowns though. I wouldn't expect him to try to snap off a bluff here.

How much to bet to steal the pot is pretty read-dependent I think. I personally would have bet slightly less, but I don't think betting a little more is terrible.

[tripdad]

i should have said in my previous post that i do like the play overall. there was just that one thing that gave me pause for the play....my main point could also help others to think about when/when not to "make a move".

for what it's worth, UTG would not need to bluff here with all his chips. all he needs is top pair/decent kicker, and to put hero on a bluff. there is one particular player i play with quite regularly where all i need is top pair to check/raise all in there. he absolutely LOVES to play the board like our hero did, and ALWAYS makes close to a pot size bet when he does. conversely, when he actually has the hand, he value bets.

good example: monday night pot limit game. i raise in MP w/AA. he is the only caller, and is in the straddle. the board is a scary J /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. i bet $50 into a $55 pot. he calls. turn: 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif. he bets $125 into me. i call putting him on a dry 9. river is 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. check/check. he tables Q9offsuit. he would not have bet into me if he had the straight, and i knew it. against this player, i would have at the very least called had i been UTG in the OP's hand and had at least top pair. against most any other player at the table, i can fold my aces.

cheers!

[tbach24]

Don't you consider it possible for MP1's flop and turn (two overcalls) to scream a flush draw? If it were heads-up, any decent player would raise the weak bet on the turn with a draw (or any 2 really). However, since it's 3-way and he's almost got pot odds and implied odds (as he's figuring OP was on a flush draw). BTW, the river is pretty bad. A good player might put you on a flush draw, and with the nut flush there on the river, go for the c/r.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you consider it possible for MP1's flop and turn (two overcalls) to scream a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was the only one that called twice on this hand. On the flop UTG bet, on the turn MP1 bet.

I consider it HIGHLY unlikely for MP1 to have the flush draw and slightly less unlikely that UTG has it given the lines each took.

KoW

[tbach24]

How do you consider it so unlikely for UTG (that's what I meant in my last post) to have a flush draw? He lead the flop hard, check/called the turn, and checked the river. Against a player I suspect of drawing to a weaker flush (you) then that's the line I'm taking on the turn and river.

[KowCiller]

Soah addressed this above, he would have probably led the river. Of course, it's not 100%.

But even still, I consider flush vs. flush an edge case in this situation. I wouldn't at all consider UTG's line "standard" for a flush draw out of position against one player he respects and a donk.

For those who are keeping score, I'm not the donk (i hope) /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Honestly I'm really surprised a the number of people that don't like my play on this hand. Am I being clear that I'm not advocating this as a standard line for drawing to an OESD on a 2 suited flop?

KoW

[TheWorstPlayer]

Well, soah knows the guy and has played in that game so if he likes it that should carry a lot of weight. Also he plays g00t. Also he agreed with me. So what else could you ask for? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

BTW, what was your thought process on calling the flop? I'm curious.

[KC50]

MP fish bets $15 into an $85 pot. Cha-Ching! Remember what you said earlier about him. Well there it is. This is where I would have raised and most likely will take the pot. Sounds like UTG is on a flush draw and you should charge him too much to draw. Is UTG Jason? If so his bet on the flop is routine.

KC

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Is UTG Jason?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was a hand from this weekend. UTG was Jason. It was a very weird line for him to take.

KoW


[/ QUOTE ]
Reading is your friend. And when you say that his flop bet is routine do you mean that it is routine, given a specific holding (like a flush draw) or do you just mean that it is so routine that it tells you nothing about his hand?

[KC50]

***Correction***Instead of "sounds like UTG is on a flush draw and you should charge him too much to draw"....

Meant to say that it sounds like MP1 is the one on the flush draw or maybe bottom pair with such an undersized bet to the flop.

Knowing UTG his is most likely holding a pp under JJ such as 66 77 99 or even 10-10. JJ (maybe 10-10) he would most likely bring it in UTG with a raise.

UTG leading the flop is routine with those variety of hands is what I meant also.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, what was your thought process on calling the flop? I'm curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

When UTG bet, I planned on folding initially. After the donk in MP1 called him and CO folded, I was getting about 3:1 on an OESD in position. Typically, this is an automuck for me given the hearts on the flop, however I felt I had UTG's range of hands narrowed down pretty well leading into the field (TP, mid PP, possibly set of 5s/8s).

The MP1 donk could have absolutely anything, and I had a good read on him based on the amount he bet on other hands, and I had made him lay down hands before based on his weak bets. Also on the flop I planned to use non-board-pairing hearts as bluff cards, so I felt I could profitably see the turn.

So basically, the only reason I called the flop was the potential to take the pot away if a heart came and I could be sure no one else was on hearts. Had a heart come on turn, I probably would not have tried to make a play at it, since the turn's play was so crucial to defining my hand (imo) for UTG and I had a pretty good feel for MP1 being very weak.

I generally don't draw to straights on a flush board, but given the lineup and what I felt were strong reads, I decided to try to make a play. Additionally, if UTG did have a set and I made my straight on the turn or river, he wouldn't put me on a straight draw with the two flush out there, so I felt my hand would be well disguised.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, soah knows the guy and has played in that game so if he likes it that should carry a lot of weight. Also he plays g00t. Also he agreed with me. So what else could you ask for?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he does play g00t, and so do you. So you're right, I shouldn't ask for much else /images/graemlins/grin.gif

KoW

[KowCiller]

I bet $100 on the river. UTG folds. MP1 looks at me, shakes his head, mutters about the damn hearts and folds.

I take it down.

Thanks for all who replied. It doesn't seem like hands such as these are posted much, although that's probably because the metagame/flop texture/reads have to be all correct in order to attempt many "moves" besides "raise with trash, bet the flop"

Am I out of the kiddie pool yet?

KoW

[tbach24]

Who is that in your avatar?

[TheWorstPlayer]

I would say you were out of the kiddie pool, but you blatantly lied in your thread title since this hand happened before zaxx's post, so I can't reward you with a compliment. Ni han, though.

And thanks for saying I play well, but if that were the case why did I just bust out on UB?/images/graemlins/mad.gif I think I post orders of magnitude better than I play.

[KC50]

texture/reads have to be all correct in order to attempt many "moves" besides "raise with trash, bet the flop".

This is exactly what I mean when I told you "situational" play.

Am I out of the kiddie pool yet?

Maybe but keep playing like you're not.

Good reads and play (except I feel raising the turn would've been possibly a bit safer).

KC

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I post orders of magnitude better than I play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definetly have the same problem (especially online).

[KowCiller]

Lindsay Lohan

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say you were out of the kiddie pool, but you blatantly lied in your thread title since this hand happened before zaxx's post

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok Ok, so you caught me... this hand did happen before his post. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I think I post orders of magnitude better than I play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I definitely fall under this category as well. It's always easier to criticize other's play after minutes of dissection and thought than it is to play your own cards in the 15 seconds at the table. With that said, I'd be an even WORSE player at the table without critiquing posts!

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
With that said, I'd be an even WORSE player at the table without critiquing posts!

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I play ten orders of magnitude better than I did before I started posting here. /images/graemlins/smile.gif And once I develop some discipline (and reign in my ego - this idiot can't possibly have a hand to be legitimately raising!) then maybe I'll even play as well as I post. Working on it...

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I out of the kiddie pool yet?

[/ QUOTE ]

According to Jason at least, 2/5 *is* the kiddie pool. BTW... he was in for $260 tonight and racked up $2200 when our table broke. He sure knows something about beating this game that I don't.

[KC50]

He sure knows something about beating this game that I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Soah,

You are definitely a quality player. However with all do respect, you are correct.

KC

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
He sure knows something about beating this game that I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Soah,

You are definitely a quality player. However with all do respect, you are correct.

KC

[/ QUOTE ]

So how about letting us in on the secret? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ghazban]

I think a better line for this hand would be to raise the flop (pot-sized-ish), check behind on the turn, then bet the river. The raise flop/check turn screams draw but, since they don't know you're really drawing at the straight and not the hearts, there are a ton of river cards that win you the pot (and your flop raise might win it right there). If you make your straight on the river with a non-heart, there's a good chance you can win a very large pot as your big bet there will look like a busted heart draw. When the heart hits, it looks like you're value betting your flush and you can pick it up with a smallish bluff.