Hello,Players! Creative/productive peak...

[SittingBull]

as a function of age.
While reading "A Beautiful mind" , a biography of the famous mathematician John F. Nash,it was stated that mathematicians reach their creative/productive peak around the age of 30.
H /forums/images/icons/ooo.gif ence,any work done beyond this age is usually of little significance.
Can the same be true of creative/productive poker players??
I believe Stu Ungar was at his peak at an early age.
But what about most world class poker players?

Just wondering
Sitting Bull

[Mike]

As I understand, once we reach mid thirties to early forties our brains start to shrink. I am not sure that would inhibit our learning or creativity. After all we are still learning (hopefully anyway), new things and having new experiences. Being world class you may slip or stop growing, but there a sooo many below you, and the slip is probably negligable.

As for mathematicians and world class anything players, I think by the time they hit thirty, they are getting a little burnt and other areas of their lives start to interest them.

[SittingBull]

[Ginogino]

Hello S.B.:
I think that in some respects poker is more like, say, basketball (where you don't have time to think what the opponent's move means -- you have to think out and learn the correct reaction in practice, so that it is a matter of having the correct trained reflex when the time comes) than chess (where you can think about things for a considerable time -- though there are super-quick chess games as well). In poker you can ask for time and get perhaps a minute to think things through, but for the most part you don't have much time to do probabilities and game theory and the like. I think it's a question of learning patterns and what I call rhythms, for lack of a better word. When you recognize that what's happening at the table creates the opportunity for such-and-such a play (an isolation raise, to give a specific example) then you take a quick look to see if that play might work (and decide not to try to isolate if tricky players yet to bet will recognize and counter your maneuver, should that be the case).

My point is that this doesn't demand "creativity" (coming up with new theories/ideas - which is what I think Nash means), but what it does demand a good memory, which barring medical problems we old fogeys can still hope for.

Gino

[Al Schoonmaker]

I really can't say when poker players hit their peak, but there is lots of anecdotal evidence that scientists hit it early. Newton did his best work before he was 21! Einstein's most original work was done before he turned 27.
Many years ago C.K. Yang, a Nobel Prize winning physicist, wrote something like this. Great things will be done in physics in the very near future, but I won't do them. I know too much. Any time an original idea enters my head I can think of lots of reasons why it won't work.
Some people believe that this sort of "inhibition" is a major reason that Newton, Einstein, and many others did their best work so young.

I can link this crudely to poker creativity. David Sklansky wrote "Hold'em poker" when he was in his twenties. Phil Ivey, Layne Flack, and a couple of others are doing extremely well, and some of their strategies are quite creative (or so I've been told).
Since I'm 65, I find this entire subject depressing as hell.
Oh, well.

Regards,

Al

[Tommy Angelo]

"once we reach mid thirties to early forties our brains start to shrink."

And that's why older players are better than younger ones. Brain shrinkage is a GOOD thing in poker!

Tommy

[Mike]

Hey S B,

Obviously you have better mids than mine thinking about this, that's a good thing.

I really enjoyed your and the other posts, and I have been thinking about it off and on for a few days now. There are some great insights offered up, maybe there will be more?

I think there are other things going on too that may not be quite so obvious that I would like to introduce and get some feedback from? Whether you are a rocket scientist or a world class poker player you are probably well ahead of most of the world in intelligence. One of the faults of high intelligence is you see see the world in a way most people do not until they are heading into their declining years, perhaps over 70 years of age - I really don't know, but it doesn't happen by 35 I am sure. Some people never reach that perspective at all.

So here you are, Johnny rocket scientist who circles the outer galaxies somewhere but loves and is obsessed by science. Johnny goes on and recieves a rocket science degree and he is told that he is one half of one percent of the population, that only one in every 10k college graduates ever reach his level. So of course Johnny's parents have pointed him to the money and to do big world changing things, making a pile of money in the process because we do pay big bucks for brains. Johnny wanted to go into agriculture and help feed the world, but various companies, and the government offer Johnny five to ten times what he could make feeding the world. Of course Johnny has ambitions and bills too. Ten years of schooling, rent, food, and so on. Johnny is way way in debt. What is Johnny to do?

Well, he really has little choice so he takes a job working on technology that won't even be leading edge for another two decades. Johnny tries not to think of the fact that what he is does is work on machines that every bully in the world would give up his own family for. He does this day after day. Everyone around Johnny tells him how great he is, how important his work is, and what a great thing he is doing. Just like a movie star Johnny rocket scientist is protected from negativity about what he does and what he really wanted to do.

It's now ten or so years down the road, and Johnny is finally realizing the fruits of his labor. He has helped achieve what no group has ever achieved before! He has helped develop technolgy that is almost incomprehensible to the average human being. They tell Johnny that no one will dare face the destruction that he has created...if it is ever unleashed, and what a great thing he has done! But Johnny doesn't feel proud for some reason. He isn't proud of what he has done, and maybe he's thinking about his place in the world and what he has done with it. Johnny doesn't try to make any more advances. He doesn't try much at all as a matter of fact. He has retired even though he is still working. His psyche can't take it any more.

As in rocket science, perhaps it is for many in the world class poker? Perhaps there were dry times and they were reduced to doing things they weren't so proud of. Maybe those days of taking money from men who were playing with their rent money, their wives paychecks, their mortgages have piled up to a point where they just aren't happy any more? Maybe they swindled unsuspecting players in rigged games to make ends meet? I really don't have a clue what it's like trying to get started as a pro player, but it can't be easy.

Every decision they make may effect whether they will be able to play next week. Where there is money there are crooks. I can not say every pro has high ethics, I know I don't all the time, nor do my neighbors or co-workers, or my family. We're just human like everyone else, and so are the pro's. Perhaps for many of them, the decisions they had made pile up until the weight becomes too great, and something has to give? Maybe the few who are over 35 and are still greats in science or poker, never had to feel that way because they made different decisions than the rest?

Then again, maybe I am full of it, and some pro's drop out because they can no longer compete and their ego's just can not accept it? I really don't know, but your post sure provides a lot to think about.

As for brain shrinkage, I think it helps up think faster. Why else can we go to the kitchen for a glass of water and not get it until and hour or so and many chores later? LOL

[brad]

conan the barbarian reached his peak at 33.

seriously ive heard that tennis players peak at 27.

[SittingBull]

provoking philosophical ideas!
Thanks for the compliments about "my post".
But remember,this post was inspired by my reading Nash's biography. Hence,it was NOT my idea.
I'm 59. So any "new" ideas are probably NOT generated at that age(LOL)!.
BTW, I have MORE trouble with players UNDER 35 tha /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif n I do with the seniors. Some of these youngsters give me stomach cramps(LOL)!

Happy pokering,Mike!

Sitting Bull

[SittingBull]

[SittingBull]

of this hypothesis. Until then,age GRACEFULLY! LOL!

happy pokering , Al!
Sitting Bull
/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[SittingBull]

Techniques and moves are not "on the spur of the moment" inspirations.
Nice post!
Happy pokering,Gino!
Sitting Bull

[SittingBull]

[Al Schoonmaker]

Sitting Bull is right. There is no proof. It's just a hypothesis with some interesting anecdotal evidence that supports it.

As for going into the kitchen, then forgetting why I'm there, I'm taking the fifth amendment.

Al