My first posted limit hand (combined with a little whining)

[Jibbs]

I have been primarily a NL and STT player for the last couple of years with a lot of luck. After finding 2+2 and reading through the forums I decided that it sounded like fun to go back and start playing limit again (with a new found knowledge gained from lurking around here).

I've read SSHE and HEPFAP and feel like I do a decent job of applying the concepts although I'm sure I still have more leaks then fingers to plug them. After a trip to Vegas and about 3 weeks of online play I was up about 800BB.

On the last day of the Vegas trip until now the poker gods have been pooping on my parade. I've given back about 600BB. Looking back over the hands I don't see a whole lot I would have done differently in a most hands. Its just been a case of people constantly hitting the river card they need against me and good hands not holding up. Thats the end of my whining.

I decided it was time to throw myself on the alter and get some feedback from the forum. One of the things I noticed looking back over hands that I get somewhat passive on flops when I get bet into.

Here is a hand that I played on Full Tilt 2/4 when trying to correct this.

reads:
MP2 is a solid player, Button is Loose player who has been chasing

9-handed

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: (4.5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, Button calls, BB folds, MP2 raises, Hero calls, Button calls

Turn: (6.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif
MP2 bets, Hero calls, Button calls

River: (9.75 BB) 10/images/graemlins/spade.gif
MP2 bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, MP3 caps, Hero calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 21.75 BB


Is this flop raise correct? ...calling the 3-bet? Feel free to castigate me for the turn play.

[PokerProdigy]

I don't like the flop raise because this is a small pot, but I guess if you're gonna call his bet you might as well raise to try to limit the field, however, this might NOT work because many people in these games will call with any two overcards on this flop (even if you raise) and then you may be in trouble if an overcard appears on the turn, and then how will you play your hand? This situation on the flop seems like reverse implied odds (if you don't know what I am talking about look it up in the first chapter of SSHE).

After, the flop though I think you have to raise the turn (even cap it if you get the chance) and the same goes for the river, because you can't worry about someone having pocket sixes or pocket tens.

[spydog]

Raise this preflop. The entire hand will play differently if you do, so I won't comment on the other streets.

[Jibbs]

I figured MP2 may bet here with two overcards or A-2 and I didn't want to be pushed off the best hand. When the button called me and MP2 reraised I thought to myself 'whoops, maybe not'. I called the reraise with the intention of throwing it away on the turn with no improvement.

My turn call baffled me as soon as I did it.

[tetonpete]

i think your implied odds are high enough to call the flop reraise. I'd probably raise the turn as the button seems to be on a flush draw and won't fold. If he hits it, you make more money by just calling the turn, but the 4 out of five times he misses you need to get in that other big bet. Plus there's a good possibly that mp2 will reraise with his A6s or pocket twos and you can trap the button for another bet or two.
And if the button has 10-6,a turn raise will make you lots of money.

[tetonpete]

and as spydog says, raise this preflop

[Jibbs]

Interesting. I don't know if this particular hand would play too differently (you will see when I post the results).

But, I am interested in the thought process in raising this pre-flop. Is it to get rid of the button and blinds or to try to grab a free card if the flop doesnt hit or ...?

[CallMeIshmael]

Raise preflop.

77 does well vs MANY opponents or FEW, it doesnt like 4.

Assuming you limped:

Mandatory flop raise (I think someone said he didn't like it /images/graemlins/confused.gif)

Raise the turn. The button is very likely on a flush draw. He wont put money in on the river. No reason to slowplay, you almost certainly missed a lot of bets here.

River I dig.

[Jibbs]

MP2 shows pocket 2's for 2's full of 6's
Hero shows pocket 7's for 7's full of 6's
Button shows pocket 10's for 10's full of 6's

Hero mutters profanity to self.

[spydog]

You raise PF to get HU or 3-way with initiative. This allows you to win the pot on the flop with 1 bet when your opponents miss. The less opponents seeing the flop, the better the chance you take it down with a flop bet.

[Jibbs]

[ QUOTE ]
77 does well vs MANY opponents or FEW, it doesnt like 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will tuck that little nugget away for later use.

[ QUOTE ]
Mandatory flop raise (I think someone said he didn't like it )

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked the flop raise the more I thought about it after the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
River I dig.

[/ QUOTE ]

So did I until the cards were turned up /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ErrantNight]

you should like the flop raise particularly because this is a small pot. he'll fold overcards here. i fail to see how you're getting into reverse implied odds at all, either.

the turn raise was easy.

going all the way on the river was easy.

the loose flop call after the 3-bet shoulda been easy.

a preflop raise shoulda been easy.

[ErrantNight]

perhaps the most ridiculous hand ever.

but you shoulda lost a helluva lot more

[Jibbs]

[ QUOTE ]
but you shoulda lost a helluva lot more

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking the same thing after the hand. Heres to horribly misplaying the turn. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[tetonpete]

[ QUOTE ]
but you shoulda lost a helluva lot more

[/ QUOTE ]
or not...every now and then you'll get a fold from a higher pocket pair when you raise the turn after the flop is three-bet

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Heres to horribly misplaying the turn. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, Heres to genital herpes /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Jibbs]

You hit the one thing that really bothered me about the hand there. I wondered if capping the turn would have driven the button out.

[tetonpete]

well, probably not...but that's why you cap it

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop raise because this is a small pot,

[/ QUOTE ]

*buzzer* - "wrong"

Raising here has nothing to do with pot size.

Btw, raising here is a good play.


Adam

[PokerProdigy]

I know the feeling, when you make a play and you wonder why on earth you would play it that way?

[txdolly]

The MP2 staying in helped the button IMO. If the pot became HU between you and the button the raise on the turn may have folded the button. With no overcards on the board the button also may have figured his TT was good. I would have a hard time putting the MP2 on such a small PP. Although the flop re-raise may make me think.

[tetonpete]

If I'm the button, I'm a lot more likely to consider folding to the turn raise against TWO players representing trips or better than against one player showing aggression. Given the read of the button as one who likes to chase, it's quite possible that he would call any bet or raise unless an Ace fell, but that why you want to raise. This is a pretty big pot already, but not so big that I don't want calls from someone who's 22-1.
I don't think it's too hard to put mp2 on A6s or 22. While mp2's presence gives the button better pot odds, in my view that is outweighed by the fact that he's now probably drawing to two outs.

[somapopper]

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 shows pocket 2's for 2's full of 6's
Hero shows pocket 7's for 7's full of 6's
Button shows pocket 10's for 10's full of 6's

Hero mutters profanity to self.

[/ QUOTE ]

jesus.