A good push?

[KidV]

Is this a good play? I'm a little bitter cuz I lost, but is this smart SNG poker?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t1860)
CO (t1920)
Hero (t565)
SB (t735)
BB (t800)
UTG (t2120)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t565 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls t515.

Flop: (t1205) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t1205) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t1205) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1205

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has Jd Kc (three of a kind, kings).
Hero has Ts Ad (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: UTG wins t1205. </font>

[J-Lo]

I hate limpers, especially when they are the big stack, i don't know how to deal with them... with that said, good push-- but my ROI is &lt;20%

[lastchance]

I don't think it's bad. That said, I'm not sure if it's good either. Depends on how much UTG limp.

[deathpotato]

Really need a read to make a good decision. With no reads, at least knowing the buyin would be good.

[KidV]

thanks for the input, I think it was the right move.

[Scuba Chuck]

Given the situation, and the current blind strucutre, and your stack, this would seem like a good play.

One thing to consider is your opponents stack. Any reads on UTG?

Scuba

[SuitedSixes]

Not a good push. Level 3 with more than 10BB is too early for this kind of move. Wait for a better opportunity when there is more $$$ in the pot.

[RobGW]

There is $125 in the pot with nobody showing any aggression. SB and BB will probably fold unless they wake up with something big. UTG is a little worrisome with a big stack but he didn't raise here so he is likely to have a mediocre hand that he wants to see a flop with. You are the short stack here so why not just push and try to take the money without a fight.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is a little worrisome with a big stack but he didn't raise here so he is likely to have a mediocre hand that he wants to see a flop with.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I tend to agree here, it depends on how UTG got his stack. Is he a loose caller/player? So I continue to ask first, any reads here?

[KidV]

While I tend to agree here, it depends on how UTG got his stack. Is he a loose caller/player? So I continue to ask first, any reads here?

[/ QUOTE ]

He went all in on 1st hand on river with a 5's full o 10's. I went back to look and he saw 20 of 26 flops. Gee, I wonder if he will call? But isn't that what I want?

[microbet]

Just out of curiousity
You were .601 to win
$EV win = .158
$EV fold = .0821
.601 x .158 = .0950

(assuming villian wins, but just blinds and ignoring other plays like your calling)

So, not that this says anything about your push, as it happened, but if you knew he had KJ and would call and everyone else would fold, it was a good push and not even that close.

The problem though is that I don't think your bet gets UTG to fold some of the hands you might hope he would fold like low PPs or AJ-Q.

In general, I think it is good to take UTG moves a little more seriously than later position. Pretty much even the fishiest fish know about position. They might have gone to the bathroom when Mike Sexton or Vince Van Patten were talking about it, but they stayed to watch the Shana Hiatt segment on position, and they certainly watched her bit about being stacked which also applies here.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
While I tend to agree here, it depends on how UTG got his stack. Is he a loose caller/player? So I continue to ask first, any reads here?


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He went all in on 1st hand on river with a 5's full o 10's. I went back to look and he saw 20 of 26 flops. Gee, I wonder if he will call? But isn't that what I want?

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that he saw 20 of 26 flops should tell you something. And that is, he will pay you off when you get a powerful hand, like QQ+.

Next, do you want him to call you, particularly in this scenario?

Well.... it depends. If this were a cash game in lieu of a tournament, absolutely yes. You're a 60% favorite to win this hand. Being a 60% favorite in a cash game is an edge you must exploit to be a winning player. But in a tournament, taking advantage of small edges early doesn't guarantee you any money, if it means your tournament life. Thus, playing cautiously in tournaments is the line of a professional. But for me, this is not the hand I want want to do battle with. If you were playing with your cards up, and you knew each other's hands, and you went allin, I think he would still call you. (This almost reminds me of a hand I saw in the tournament of champions series, where TJ Cloutier pushed allin with ATo from UTG, and Gus Hansen called him from the BB with KQs. It was interesting to see all the table mumbling that followed, where Gus Hansen replied something like "Guys, I don't need that high a hand to win this thing." - he won that thing.)

I agree here with your line of thinking, to push allin and take down the 125 chips in the pot. The reason is because the best way to accumulate chips is not to see a showdown (and even better, not to see a flop). The problem with your move is that you're pushing into a guy who's seen 20 of 26 flops. Now, in that context, I disagree that this is a good move, because it's likely that you'll get called. And, it's likely on average, you're only a slight favorite to win the hand, so a coinflip. In the grand scheme of things, meaning this game, and the series of games to follow, and the habits you develop along the way, taking coinflips at inopportune times will very likely lower your long term ROI.

The objective of this forum is to help each other increase their long term ROI, thus this hand is a check from the BB. ATo out of position against a Laggy player can be very profitable and very dangerous. As seen by the results of your hand.

There was a post a while back titled something like "the old coinflip debate" that is probably worth reading. Anyone have the link?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
they stayed to watch the Shana Hiatt segment on position, and they certainly watched her bit about being stacked which also applies here.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice inuendo...

[Scuba Chuck]

Found it. Quite a bit math oriented. But still a very good read.

The old coinflip debate (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=819750&amp;page=7&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=7&amp;o=all&amp;vc=1)

BTW, the thread proves Philly dog has been around this forum a long time