Foxwoods 10-20: Trying to Read a Paired Doorcard in a 3-way Pot

[Dynasty]

I don't play stud anymore in Las Vegas since the games are just miserable compared to the hold 'em games. But, during my recent trip to Foxwoods, I put in a good # of hours playing "casual" 10-20 stud since there are so many good games there.

$1 antes, $3 bring-in

The hand:

The third street boards are:

Bring-in: (x,x) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif
Player A: (x,x) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Player B: (x,x) J/images/graemlins/club.gif
Player C: (x,x) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
LAG Woman: (x,x) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Player D: (x,x) 6:/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Straight Foward: (x,x) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Dynasty: (A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

The Bring-in pushed out the minimum $3. Everybody folds to a LAG Woman who completes to $10. She bets/raises just about every decent hand she has on 3rd and 4th street. But, she'll slow down on the expensive streets. She also chases with any pair or draw to the river assuming no board is particularly dangerous.

Player D folds. A Straight Forward but overly loose player called the $10. Any hand he wants to play for $3 is worth calling a raise with. He does tend to fold rather quickly early in the hand despite calling 3rd street raises. He bets and raises when he thinks he has the best hand and checks when he doesn't.

I'm next with my three overcard/Royal Flush cards and decided to make it $20. This is something I hardly every do. Usually, I'll just call and see how things develop. The Bring-in folded. LAG Woman and Straight Forward called. Three player saw fourth street with $71 in the pot.

The fourth street boards are:

LAG Woman: (x,x) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Straight Foward: (x,x) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif
Dynasty: (A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif

This, of course, is where the real fun begins. The Straight Foward player checks. A check doesn't automatically mean he doesn't have trips. Obviously, he'll sometimes slowplay until a later street or even just check-raise 4th street.

I'm happy I've actually got something of a made hand now. But, I've got concerns.

I checked and the LAG Woman bet $20 (double bet). Her bet indicated to me that she certainly had a one pair hand at least. Straight Forward called and I called. Three player see fourth street with $131 in the pot.

The fifth street boards are:

LAG Woman: (x,x) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Straight Foward: (x,x) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Dynasty: (A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Straight Forward checked again. I checked. LAG Woman bet. Straight Forward called and I called. Three players see sixth street with $191 in the pot.

The sixth street boards are:

LAG Woman: (x,x) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Straight Foward: (x,x) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Dynasty: (A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif

I've become high board now and decided to bet out. Both players call. Three players see the river with $251 in the pot.

The seventh street boards are: LAG Woman: (x,x) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (x)
Straight Foward: (x,x) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif (x)
Dynasty: (A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif (Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif)

I bet the river.

[Michael Emery]

Even though thats a pretty holding on third street I'd probably just call. Its not like your going to be knocking anyone out and your only making the pot larger. But raising there is only a small mistake if one at all. I love high and live three card flushes.

The main mistake was calling fifth. You have what could be the best hand at the moment and a powerhouse flush draw to go with it. All the open fours have done is call so you have no reason to suspect trips. I love your situation here and so should you. A definite raise. And I bet the river as well as these weak players sound like they're both paying off with two pair.

Mike Emery

[B Mando]

Raise fifth! There is a chance you have the best hand with your tens and you also picked up a very nice draw. Not to mention all your other cards are live...yummy!

I doubt the crazy lady tripped up with her 8(because she double bet) on 4th so the best she could probably have is a small two pair in which case I like your position. I also doubt the with open fours made trips because wouldnt he raise on 5th...?

I think betting on the end is good and paying off a raise...since you were playing casual I doubt you were too worried about saving one bet on the end anyways...

[MRBAA]

I like it all. Unlike the other posters, I'm not so sure I'm winning on fifth. I'd do the check call thing -- although once the fours don't c/r, I'd be tempted to to c/r. The rest of the hand is all good -- given how it was played, there's a good chance they both have two pair worse than yours. If one of them filled (or had trips), you'll just have to pay off a raise. But you could win two extra bets if they both call with two pair.

[TheShootah]

Happy B-day! RESULTS?

[BeerMoney]

I think you should raise fifth street as well. Pair, overcards and a flush draw is quite sexy.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not so sure I'm winning on fifth.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think he's winning more than 1/3rd of the time?

[CarlosChadha]

Hi All,

It is a HUGE error to not raise on 3rd with this premium hand! Other than rolled up trips, there is pretty much no hands that your opponents can have (I found NONE when running several tests on twodimes.net) where you are less than a 33.3% favorite in the pot. Even if one opponent has wired As and the other is an a str8 flush draw, you STILL have more than 33% equity in the pot, and in many cases you are the clear favorite. This means you want to get as much money in the pot since you will be getting more than your fair share back on average. Note that even those times when you are running in 2nd place in terms of pot equity, you still have more than 33.3% equity in the pot, so you still make money by jamming the pot.

Other than the fact that the math demands it, a raise also gives you all the usual advantages of taking control of the betting and running opponents out of the pot when they have the correct odds to fold (especially since you mentioned that one of the players folds often on the later streets).

Hope my rant was helpful /images/graemlins/grin.gif

-Carlos

[MickeyT]

I agree with what's already been said about raising on 5th st but other than that it looks like you are well in control of the situation.

I'm guessing there's a twist in the tale - did Lag woman improve her 8 + 9 two pair to a fh on river perhaps.

[CarlosChadha]

The 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif is listed as both a doorcard on 3rd and as the card you catch on 5th...is the door card supposed to be the 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif?

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
The main mistake was calling fifth

[/ QUOTE ]

yep

[Andy B]

You're still posting?

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I like the raise on third street. Calling would be fine as well, but you've got a fair amount of equity, and you shouldn't be folding on fourth very often in any case.

Having made the pot fairly big on third, I think you have to bet $20 on fourth. Give the other guys a chance to fold. If the lady has a bigger pair, you're not far behind at all. Even if the straightforward guy has trips, you've got outs. Most of the time, you're at least a money favorite. Bet your damned hand.

Since you checked and called on fourth, I like the suggested check-raise on fifth. It doesn't look like 447 has trips, so you've got lots of equity with your pair and flush draw with over-cards. Get some money in there.

Good bet on sixth, and good bet on seventh. A lot of players will wimp out on the end with your hand, but a value bet is in order.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i have a strong urge to checkraise 5th. i think its pretty clear the 44 doesn't have trips and LAG lady could be betting any pair here. Even if she does have two pair or better, well you have like a zillion outs.

[BeerMoney]

Carlos, I agree with your analysis here. I don't think I could ever bring myself to just call here. He's got a live over card 3 flush semi-straight. All his cards are live, and there is only one diamond out.

I also like raising cause it is likely to get the bring in out of the hand if they have some small pair or something. I think it increases our chances of winning greater.

As a side note, I think the best raise for information in limit poker is done on third street in 7 card stud, cause you get a feel for whether or not the bring in has a hand.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
The 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif is listed as both a doorcard on 3rd and as the card you catch on 5th...is the door card supposed to be the 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops. I definitely picked up a flush draw on 5th. It was a main reason why i posted the hand.

Just pretend the 5d doorcard is some other rank.

[Dynasty]

When I bet the river, both opponents folded. I don't know what the woman had. But, the guy said he had a straigh draw. So, presumably, his hole cards were a 5 and a 6.

I called on 5th rather quickly and immediately thought that I probably should have check-raised.

[Frequitude]

Sorry, no content to add, I'm just a SSH lurker.

I've never played stud before, but what looks like a well thought out discussion of this hand has piqued my interest. So...thanks! There are always a few games spread where I live, and I want to learn now...time to do some searchin'.

nice hand.