Help. Girlfriend has botulism.

[nothumb]

...or so she thinks. She was at work today and noticed a container of garlic hummus with a somewhat puffy lid. Of course she tasted it to see if it was good or not. It wasn't. She only had a tiny little bit.

Everyone else tasted it too. Now she's afraid she's going to get botulism. I told her there are probably a lot of other bacteria that make the lid puffy (she says it wasn't visibly moldy, about 7 days old), and that, barring that, she only had a tiny bit. What do you guys think?

She's leaving for Puerto Rico tonight and doesn't want to get sick on the plane. I told her to go to the doctor but she doesn't have health insurance. Please tell her to stop being paranoid.

Thanks,
NT

[chaas4747]

[ QUOTE ]
stop being paranoid.


[/ QUOTE ]

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
...or so she thinks. She was at work today and noticed a container of garlic hummus with a somewhat puffy lid. Of course she tasted it to see if it was good or not. It wasn't. She only had a tiny little bit.

Everyone else tasted it too. Now she's afraid she's going to get botulism. I told her there are probably a lot of other bacteria that make the lid puffy (she says it wasn't visibly moldy, about 7 days old), and that, barring that, she only had a tiny bit. What do you guys think?

She's leaving for Puerto Rico tonight and doesn't want to get sick on the plane. I told her to go to the doctor but she doesn't have health insurance. Please tell her to stop being paranoid.

Thanks,
NT

[/ QUOTE ]

Having read this, (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/botulism_g.htm) it sounds like if she indeed has botulism, it will be a relaxing flight.

[Sponger15SB]

It always amazes me that there are so many people who don't have health insurance.

[IndieMatty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stop being paranoid.


[/ QUOTE ]

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[PokerNoob]

I always thought Botulism bacteria grew in anerobic conditions, like improperly canned food, and not in normally spoiled stuff. Other nasties, yes, but not botulism.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
...or so she thinks. She was at work today and noticed a container of garlic hummus with a somewhat puffy lid. Of course she tasted it to see if it was good or not. It wasn't. She only had a tiny little bit.

Everyone else tasted it too. Now she's afraid she's going to get botulism. I told her there are probably a lot of other bacteria that make the lid puffy (she says it wasn't visibly moldy, about 7 days old), and that, barring that, she only had a tiny bit. What do you guys think?

She's leaving for Puerto Rico tonight and doesn't want to get sick on the plane. I told her to go to the doctor but she doesn't have health insurance. Please tell her to stop being paranoid.

Thanks,
NT

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop being paranoid. Of course you have botulism so just enjoy your last few hours.

Sorry couldn't resist.

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
I always thought Botulism bacteria grew in anerobic conditions, like improperly canned food, and not in normally spoiled stuff. Other nasties, yes, but not botulism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thus the "puffy lid" part. (She's still being paranoid, though...)

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
I always thought Botulism bacteria grew in anerobic conditions, like improperly canned food, and not in normally spoiled stuff. Other nasties, yes, but not botulism.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what she thinks too.

Look, she'll be fine if you guys can just list like 7 other things that might make the container do this. Thanks. I appreciate it.

NT

[jakethebake]

Maybe I'm off on this, but if you really think she has botulism, I'd suggest asking a doctor for help rather than logging on to oot.

[nothumb]

She doesn't have health insurance and there are only a few laboratories that run the test anyway. Takes up to four days. She's leaving for Puerto Rico tonight.

NT

[nothumb]

BTW I am not one of the people who thinks that getting medical advice from OOT is a good idea, I just doubt she has botulism.

NT

[chaas4747]

Doing my best thumb

[ QUOTE ]
Growth of spoilage bacteria and yeast produces gas which pressurizes the food, swells lids, and breaks jar seals. As each stored jar is selected for use, examine its lid for tightness and vacuum. Lids with concave centers have good seals. Next, while holding the jar upright at eye level, rotate the jar and examine its outside surface for streaks of dried food originating at the top of the jar. Look at the contents for rising air bubbles and unnatural color. While opening the jar, smell for unnatural odors and look for spurting liquid and cottony mold growth (white blue, black, or green) on the top food surface and underside of lid

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds more like yeast. Also, I do not know the acid content of Hummus but it sounds like botulism grows in low acid foods.

[nothumb]

Dammit, does that mean she's gonna get a yeast infection?

NT

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
It always amazes me that there are so many people who don't have health insurance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that was the first thing I said to her and she immediately started crying. Damn girls.

NT

[chaas4747]

Thumb,
If your girl comes back from PC and all she has is a yeast infection you should be happy. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pokerjo22]

She appears to still be alive at least one hour after the event. Ergo not botulism.

[astroglide]

HELP! GIRLFRIEND HAS EBOLA ZAIRE!

could you make a more sensational subject? this one just didn't say to me that she has a problem.

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]


if you guys can just list like 7 other things that might make the container do this. Thanks. I appreciate it.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

Well there is Botulism for starters.

[wayabvpar]

[ QUOTE ]
She appears to still be alive at least one hour after the event. Ergo not botulism.

[/ QUOTE ]

In foodborne botulism, symptoms generally begin 18 to 36 hours after eating a contaminated food, but they can occur as early as 6 hours or as late as 10 days.

Might be a tad early to start the celebration.

[KJS]

Some people don't have parents that pay their bills.

KJS

[pokerjo22]

Just goes to show what crap advice you get for medical problems on a poker fourm /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[willie]

she doesn't have botulism.


she might want to get her clap checked out though.

[Tuco]

Seven day old hummus?

Relax. I have some in my fridge at the moment thats a month old. Now that you have reminded me that its there, i'm gonna go get it.

Tuco.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
She appears to still be alive at least one hour after the event. Ergo not botulism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Botulism takes 6-36 hours for symptoms to appear.

[Sponger15SB]

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Some people don't have parents that pay their bills.

KJS

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I pay 90% of my own bills including school, rent, etc.
2) My mom has health insurance which covers me for free
3) Even if she did not have this I would have gotten my own health insurance because it is completely stupid not to be covered
4) Go [censored] yourself

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
...or so she thinks. She was at work today and noticed a container of garlic hummus with a somewhat puffy lid. Of course she tasted it to see if it was good or not. It wasn't. She only had a tiny little bit.

Everyone else tasted it too.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why you smell first, then take a pencil eraser sized portion and put it to the tip of your tongue. Also, if the can is swollen, [censored] though it out!!!!!

This could be anything that is anaerobic. Just because she didn't see mold doesn't mean it wasn't mold. Yeast ferments and produces CO2 which can cause the swelling. If it's yeast, odds are that she is fine.

[thewarden]

Wait until you enter the world outside of school, when your mother can't put you on her insurance. When you've got the choice between eating or paying for health insurance, you go with the primal needs.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
When you've got the choice between eating or paying for health insurance, you go with the primal needs.

[/ QUOTE ]

when i paid for non-hmo blue cross/blue shield when i was around 23-24 (a few years ago) it was cheap. like $90/month.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
paid like $90 [censored] dollars per month.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no way she can afford this. It sucks, but she's happy for some reason working 30 hours a week in a coffee shop with her friends making diddly. I told her she could have done that without going to college but she's comfortable.

I would add her to my coverage at work but we would have to be married, so no go.

Anyway, thanks for the replies.

NT

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
could you make a more sensational subject? this one just didn't say to me that she has a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Figured it might pique the interests of the science types around here.

Anyway, it might still be true. Hopefully nobody calls me from Puerto Rico.

NT

[offTopic]

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[ QUOTE ]
When you've got the choice between eating or paying for health insurance, you go with the primal needs.

[/ QUOTE ]

when i paid for non-hmo blue cross/blue shield when i was around 23-24 (a few years ago) it was cheap. like $90/month.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will be laid off shortly, and the COBRA packet provided by the company lists the individual rates for our decidedly non-snazzy medical coverage ranging from $287.43/mo to $316.17/mo. /images/graemlins/blush.gif A quick perusal of the Blue Cross website shows individual plans ranging from $60/mo to $416/mo.

The max OOP and deductible for the $60 plan are, obviously, pretty high, but nonetheless, being medically indigent is decidedly -EV.

[Sponger15SB]

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Wait until you enter the world outside of school, when your mother can't put you on her insurance. When you've got the choice between eating or paying for health insurance, you go with the primal needs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I wasn't on my moms insurance, I would get my own. If I couldn't afford it, I'd work harder so that I could. Also, I am probably spending more money to support myself to live than many people on this board who are single and don't have families, so I don't really know how you can possibly think it would be different once I graduated.


It is completely inexcusable and stupid to not have health insurance. I don't know how anyone can possibly even think differently.

[thewarden]

I remember when I used to see things in such stark absolutes. Those were the days....

[Mars357]

Could it be your girlfriend is a total psycho drama queen freak and you should be so lucky to have her die of botulism?

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
Could it be your girlfriend is a total psycho drama queen freak and you should be so lucky to have her die of botulism?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Not funny.

NT

[KJS]

Just as I suspected, a middle class college kid who can't understand the choices that poor people make. Maybe some day you'll meet a poor person and you can ask them why they don't have insurance.

KJS

[Skipbidder]

Obviously this is an internet forum, and it would be incredibly foolish to dispense medical advice in absence of any sort of examination. I would never be so foolish, so the rest of this post surely can't be medical advice. Woohoo.

This is probably too late to be of any assistance to you. Sorry bout that. Your girlfriend is unlikely to have botulism. Here are some details.
Botulism results from ingestion of a neurotoxin produced by a bacterium called Clostridium botulinum. Spores from this bacterium can float in the air. Eating spores will not harm your healthy adult girlfriend. If you are dating a 3 month old, then you may have a problem. (Well, you definitely have a problem, but it is outside the scope of this message.) The spores can harm an infant by colonizing their intestinal tract. (This is the reason to avoid giving an infant honey.) Back to your question. Cooking will destroy the spores. If a food is insufficiently cooked and then placed in an anaerobic environment (home canning jars being a favorite possibility), it can form the neurotoxin. You'll want to wait a few weeks to get a nice amount of the toxin built up before you have your botulism-feast.

The biggest risk items are alkaline vegetables (green beans, peppers, mushrooms) and smoked fish.

The toxin is also heat-labile. Boiling will destroy it. (Not every food poisioning toxin can be destroyed by heat.)

The doctor wouldn't have been able to do much about it. I suspect that she would have been disappointed if she made a clinic appointment and actually got in. She would have been VERY frustrated if she tried an ER visit. In the absence of eye problems or swallowing problems (or some other evidence of cranial nerve problems), she would have gotten a very low triage priority.

You can PM me if you have any further questions.

[moondogg]

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I remember when I used to see things in such stark absolutes. Those were the days....

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to have befallen some hard times, and I'm sorry to hear that, seriously. However, remember that the vast majority of people are in the situation they are in, good or bad, soley based on their own actions. Work hard and smart and succeed, or don't.

Some people run into bad luck, and suffer because it it. Meanwhile, droves of lazy shits piggyback on this looking for sympathy and handouts.

I don't mean this as any indictment of you or anyone you know. Rather, people who abuse this concept of apparent misfortune are sucking away any possible sympathy for those who truly need help.

IMHO.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously this is an internet forum, and it would be incredibly foolish to dispense medical advice in absence of any sort of examination. I would never be so foolish, so the rest of this post surely can't be medical advice. Woohoo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um wrong. Some advice is better then none and as long as you have some rudementary knowledge of science/medicine you can do a lot of counseling over the phone.

[ QUOTE ]
The doctor wouldn't have been able to do much about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um wrong again. Antitoxins and ventilatory assistance are the mainstay in fighting botulism. Antibiotics help kill the bacteria. Aminoglycosides and clindamycin are contraindicated as they exacerbate the neuromuscular blockade of the toxin.

[ QUOTE ]
Cooking will destroy the spores.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, cooking destroys the toxin. The spores can survive boiling water. You have to cook under pressure.

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect that she would have been disappointed if she made a clinic appointment and actually got in. She would have been VERY frustrated if she tried an ER visit. In the absence of eye problems or swallowing problems (or some other evidence of cranial nerve problems), she would have gotten a very low triage priority.

You can PM me if you have any further questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do everyone a favor and stop giving advice. I hope you're not a doctor because your advice is horrible.

[nothumb]

He's not even talking about personal responsibility, he's just pointing out that the person he's responding to doesn't seem to understand the decision making process in question (in his opinion) and pointing out that they are often not so simple.

[ QUOTE ]
However, remember that the vast majority of people are in the situation they are in, good or bad, soley based on their own actions. Work hard and smart and succeed, or don't.


[/ QUOTE ]

You decided to take that as an opportunity to blame the poor for their predicament. First of all, none of this has anything to do with me or my gf, since her lifestyle is by choice and she has backup. Second, the kind of lecture you are giving (unprompted and out of place, I might add) justifies plunder and greed and minimizes the struggle of people who are genuinely caught in a cycle of poverty created by dead-end jobs, outsourcing, predatory lenders and unfair tax structures. In short, it's smug and stupid and wrong.


The rest of your post does not indicate that you are devoid of compassion or decency. However this part you should seriously rethink.

NT

[Dead]

This tangential issue belongs in politics, as you said, but you made good points(specifically the points concerning predatory lending and unfair tax structures).

[nothumb]

Wacki I really just posted this hoping you would be trolling around, but whatev. You're late.

NT

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
Wacki I really just posted this hoping you would be trolling around, but whatev. You're late.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm doing less and less wetlab work now so I won't have as much time for OOT due to the lack of downtime. /images/graemlins/frown.gif It's good though as I feel like I'm being much more productive.

Hopefully I'll be able to find a job in New England so we can do this in person. Not to mention you won't have to use the girly tactic of crying wolf just to get attention. /images/graemlins/grin.gif BTW, who normally comes to the rescue in situations like this? The man or the woman? I forget. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[moondogg]

Hey, I apologize for hijacking your thread. It was a an extension of the idea that she should have health insurance, and followed in term by my believe that "it's not that simple" is used too loosely.

I don't deny being smug. It's one of my more charming attributes, if you believe that.

It seems that our views would differ greatly on why people succeed, and I would never make an apology for my views. However, you're correct, this is not the place to discuss it, and so I apologize for the timing and geography.

[Skipbidder]

[ QUOTE ]
The doctor wouldn't have been able to do much about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Um wrong again. Antitoxins and ventilatory assistance are the mainstay in fighting botulism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps next time you are thinking of being such a complete jackass, you might go back and read for comprehension first.
Original poster's girfriend didn't have botulism, just the fear of botulism. CDC records indicate fewer than 30 cases of adult foodborne botulinum on average per year in the US. Original poster suggested to his girlfriend that she go to the doctor. When I said that a doctor wouldn't have been able to do much for her, what I meant was that a doctor wouldn't have been able to do much for her. Sorry to use such tricky words.


[ QUOTE ]
Cooking will destroy the spores.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
No, cooking destroys the toxin. The spores can survive boiling water. You have to cook under pressure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll admit to being sloppy here. At least you selectively quoted it in order not to allow the original meaning to get through. I said that spores in foods that were insufficiently cooked and then placed in an anaerobic environment, it might allow for formation of toxin. Cooking may not be sufficient to destroy spores. The temperature necessary depends on which strain is present and the alkalinity of the food. If you really wish to be picky about it, then you are wrong here as well. Spores of some of the strains are certainly destroyed by boiling without the need for pressure.

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect that she would have been disappointed if she made a clinic appointment and actually got in. She would have been VERY frustrated if she tried an ER visit. In the absence of eye problems or swallowing problems (or some other evidence of cranial nerve problems), she would have gotten a very low triage priority.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting that you quote this as well. Either you didn't read it, or you are extraordinarily stupid. If you did read it and comprehend it, you would have understood what I meant when I said that a doc wouldn't be able to do much of anything for her.

[willie]

[ QUOTE ]
Could it be your girlfriend is a total psycho drama queen freak and you should be so lucky to have her die of botulism?

[/ QUOTE ]

lmfao

[thewarden]

DING!DING!DING!DING!
We have a winner!

Sometimes having insurance still doesn't prevent you from still racking up $20,000 worth of medical costs. Until you're there, don't judge too quickly. Things always look rosy from the top but trudging through the valleys gives you a whole different perspective. I'd go further into depth on the issue but it's neither the time or the place.

NT, hope your lady friend makes it to PR without anything exploding out of her stomach a la Aliens.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps next time you are thinking of being such a complete jackass, you might go back and read for comprehension first. Original poster's girfriend didn't have botulism, just the fear of botulism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey I wasn't the one being sloppy. You said "it would be incredibly foolish to dispense medical advice in absence of any sort of examination." followed by I would never be so foolish, so the rest of this post surely can't be medical advice. which was followed by The doctor wouldn't have been able to do much about it. which was followed by You can PM me if you have any further questions.

Do you see a problem there? Also: possible offer of peer review free authoritative advice + many contradictions = trouble

[ QUOTE ]
If you really wish to be picky about it, then you are wrong here as well. Spores of some of the strains are certainly destroyed by boiling without the need for pressure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you were giving him advice on how to kill the spores in food he might eat. You gave bad advice and I corrected you, so no I don't think I was wrong in that context.

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting that you quote this as well. Either you didn't read it, or you are extraordinarily stupid. If you did read it and comprehend it, you would have understood what I meant when I said that a doc wouldn't be able to do much of anything for her.


[/ QUOTE ]

I still stand by my statement.

Look, you obviously have read a website or maybe even a paper about botulism. I commend you for atleast going that far, and I'm glad you can admit you were sloppy. I make mistakes too. I just think you gave bad advice and you need to be very careful when talking about deadly diseases because people may end up getting the wrong idea. Those kind of mistakes can cost lives.

[nothumb]

I never said anything about this not being the time or place, only that you were poking your nose without any real prompting and that says a lot about you. But you acknowledged those characteristics to which I am referring so that point is moot. I have no problem discussing this now because it's something I happen to know a bit about, from experience as well as study.

Clearly you believe that the majority of instances of poverty or struggle in this country are due to stupidity or laziness, and not bad luck, circumstances or environment. You also believe that the majority of cases wherein people accept government aid are those 'piggybacking' off those rare, legitimate cases of hard luck. You probably have this vision in your head of herds of poor people, lacking motivation or values or discipline, suckling at the teat of the bloated state. Let me point out to you that federal aid programs, be they health care, food stamps, or welfare, take up a very small fraction of state and national budgets. They pale in comparison to the appropriations each state gets for pork barrel spending, and seem miniscule compared to the bailouts we pay to mismanaged corporations, the contracts we give to political allies, subsidies for industries that cannot keep themselves afloat, etc.

Your ethos of hard work and self reliance is a popular myth. In fact many of the richest corporations get that way with government support, on taxpayer dollars, while politicians preach about shrinking the bloated social welfare system, that supposedly encourages people not to work and does more harm than good.

I take this debate very personally, as I work in a field that provides a valuable service to society, yet am constantly told that there isn't any more money to pay for our work. I even hear these 'do it yourself' capitalists claim that many social service or education professionals are OVERPAID for the work they do, which is laughable.

If you really think American business is built on self-reliance and hard work, and that money is a true measure of success in this country, I can only hope for your sake that you die before the money runs out or you have a chance to realize otherwise.

NT

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
I take this debate very personally, as I work in a field that provides a valuable service to society, yet am constantly told that there isn't any more money to pay for our work. I even hear these 'do it yourself' capitalists claim that many social service or education professionals are OVERPAID for the work they do, which is laughable.

If you really think American business is built on self-reliance and hard work, and that money is a true measure of success in this country, I can only hope for your sake that you die before the money runs out or you have a chance to realize otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of many reasons why I like you.