1/2 VPIP

[iluzion]

What is everyones VPIP at 1/2? Im sitting at 19.2 over a very small sample size, it sounds good to me, but is it?

[tiltaholic]

i'll tell you if you tell me how to inlay images into a post /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Stuey]

[ QUOTE ]
What is everyones VPIP at 1/2? Im sitting at 19.2 over a very small sample size, it sounds good to me, but is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

When a person moves up limits they can become weak tight. This statement sounds like your at risk of becoming weak tight. 19% is fine 22% is ok also if you are prepared for the larger variance that comes with it.

When I tried to move up to 2/4 I turned weak tight and lost 150BB and had to drop down. I had the 300BB bankroll for 2/4 but I was not ready to risk it. And to play good tight aggressive poker you have to risk it. My ag factor was under 1.5.

In GTAOT Mason explains how each person will find a limit level they are most comfortable at and stay there. To high and they will get weak tight, to low and they undervalue the bets and spew chips.

Now I am not saying we have to stay in .5/1 forever! But each time we move up we are going to get that bad feeling. And we have to fight through it and play the same as we did at the lower level. From your other posts I'm sure your going to make it. But remember you can always move down and build that roll up to like 1000BB. Then the loses won't be so scary when you move up.

[iluzion]

Stuey, I'm not worried about losing here, I went through both a downstreak in cards and adjusting play and lost 60BB or so, but I caught on and have a pretty nice win rate by now, just wandered if my VPIP is "optimum". Have you made it back into 2/4 yet? If you have, what were your VPIP stats there?

[tiltaholic]

mine is more on the tighter side...at 17.4%
personally, i am working on loosening up and being more aggressive in late position, and i think a position breakdown is better than the overall vpip number.
so i'm trying to post it:

http://tinypic.com/2i2mg4

i suck - just click it (http://tinypic.com/2i2mg4)

[Stuey]

When I play well and over 10K hands my VP$IP is 16-18. However I have won for 5K hands with a VP$IP as high as 26% and it was good fun. I don't recommend it but the point is don't worry so much. It is a number that is NOT under your control most of the time.

If you get good cards play them, always even if your VPIP might go over 20%. You know about position, and which cards play well in each situation. I can tell you play well preflop from your other posts. But you are doubting yourself and this can cause other problems. It happens to me often also.

I took a stab at 5/10 once when I had won a MTT and had to much money! This was before I found 2+2 so it was a crazy move. I beat it for 2.88BB/100 with a VPIP of 23.98. This was for only 1226 hands however. Even though I didn't know jack about poker at the time I could tell I was getting lucky! Thank god I stopped. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Stuey]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/Stuey2plus2/okoyeKC_188x250.jpg

You need to put a [ here --> IMG]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/Stuey2plus2/okoyeKC_188x250.jpg[/IMG]

Does this help?

[tiltaholic]

apparently not.... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

this is worse than when i was trying to figure out the profanity filter. this f[/i]ucking sucks.

[NAU_Player]

[ QUOTE ]
apparently not.... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

this is worse than when i was trying to figure out the profanity filter. this f[/i]ucking sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

your image needs a file extension for the [IMG] to work. like .jpg

[tiltaholic]

there. made it bigger.
now that we've solved that dilemma...who can tell me why i have 1 hand 8 seats off the button??? driving me crazy /images/graemlins/smile.gif

http://img97.exs.cx/img97/7558/12pos4xs.jpg

[mhardy]

Man, if 17-19 are tight I wonder what mine would be called at 12-13% :-) After a thousand hands, playing most from later positions and using sshe pf chart, I just haven't caught the cards to play much. No way I'm going to play stuff like T4o just to get vpip up. It gets doubly frustrating when I get AT and have to CC to play (which I won't do). I'm really just not seeing starting hands. Guess I'll have to patiently wait it out...

[Stuey]

its to small bro can't read it! don't feel to bad I don't know how to beat the [censored] censor.

[tiltaholic]

fixed it.

thanks to you and NAU!

[NAU_Player]

[ QUOTE ]
who can tell me why i have 1 hand 8 seats off the button??? driving me crazy /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly you were at an 11-Max table for an orbit /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
thanks to you and NAU!

[/ QUOTE ]
no problem /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Man, if 17-19 are tight I wonder what mine would be called at 12-13% :-) After a thousand hands, playing most from later positions and using sshe pf chart, I just haven't caught the cards to play much. No way I'm going to play stuff like T4o just to get vpip up. It gets doubly frustrating when I get AT and have to CC to play (which I won't do). I'm really just not seeing starting hands. Guess I'll have to patiently wait it out...

[/ QUOTE ]

30k hands and I'm ALL THE WAY UP to 12.70%!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm like you, either I'm not catching the cards in postion to be playing or I have had a series of cold runs. I have opened up to playing pp's in EP on a semi-passive table, but once I'm in I'll normally always call a raise for one more. Also, ATo has been added in MP and since my SB VP is around 24%, I'm starting to play more offsuited connectors with a bunch of limpers.

Even so, you should see some of the remarks I get when others see my 12% VP in earlier posts!

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
What is everyones VPIP at 1/2? Im sitting at 19.2 over a very small sample size, it sounds good to me, but is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

HOW small a sample? VP$IP converges fast. Every month in my PT is within a few tenths of a percent, and I play about 8k hands/month. My VP$IP at 1/2 is 16.4%, PFR is 9.6% after about 30k hands.

19% is fine, I'm really tight cuz I'm always playing 8 tables at once, and I play more cryptos than partys..

[tiltaholic]

guys-

i wasn't saying that 17 is "tight". i was saying that it is "tighter" than 19, 22, or 26, which where the other numbers mentioned so far. i think 17 is a pretty good overall number - some players would be more profitable at 15, and some at 20 or higher (or lower) but i still stand by the idea that it is more important to know (and to work on)the positional breakdown once you have basic preflop play down.

depending on your sample size, i would say that you are likely missing a lot of value by only playing 12% of your hands in the 1/2 game...however perhaps you restrict the number of situations in which you have tough decisions and are more profitable for that reason...

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
...who can tell me why i have 1 hand 8 seats off the button??? driving me crazy /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

PT sometimes generate error files that say something like: Error: could not determine who was the big blind; if you play another hand at this table, this error will self-correct."

I'd venture a guess that the one hand produced an error message and that it didn't self-correct because you left the table. Just a guess though.

and my VPIP at both 1/2 and 2/4 is in the low/mid 19s.

[itsmesteve]

i'm only about 8K hands into 1/2 but run in the 20-21 range. i attribute this to two things. 1. i'm generally a bit looser than most here (as evidenced by 20K plus hands at .5/1 that had a VPIP higher than the above range) and 2. i've been running good, so i figure i must be getting good cards dealt to me.

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
Man, if 17-19 are tight I wonder what mine would be called at 12-13% :-)

...

No way I'm going to play stuff like T4o just to get vpip up. It gets doubly frustrating when I get AT and have to CC to play (which I won't do). I'm really just not seeing starting hands. Guess I'll have to patiently wait it out...

[/ QUOTE ]

12-13%?? I'd call that 'insane'! I can't imagine what you're throwing away, I'd have to be folding AJ/ATs/QJs/22-88 for sure, Im guessing KQ/99/TT in unraised pots before I'd get that low. Believe me, you dont need to get down to T4 to get your VPIP up to even 15%, which I'd consider an absolute minimum.

Im at 16%, and PF I fold AT 80% of the time, KJo 95%, 22-88 to ANY raise, any suited connector lower than JTs to any raise. 1000 hands is a drop in the bucket, you must be getting colder cards than I've ever got.

Sasnak, with 30k hands at 12-13%, you're leaving tons of $$ on the table, you need a serious makeover in your PF game. I can't beleive anyone gets colddecked that bad. Can you give us some examples of what you'd consider marginal folds/calls preflop? Are you underrolled and trying to keep variance as low as possible or ??

[iluzion]

my sample size? a little less than 2k.

[bd8802]

[ QUOTE ]
What is everyones VPIP at 1/2? Im sitting at 19.2 over a very small sample size, it sounds good to me, but is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am at 16.7 over almost 5k hands, and sitting right at 2BB/100. If you sample size is really small there could be a 3% varriance based on a good or bad run of cards.

I am trying to open up my game a little bit. But anything under 20% is usually good if you have a solid post-flop play. If you are unsure about post-flop play then you might look at becoming a little tighter.

/bd

[NigelTufnel]

Tiltaholic,
Thanks for posting! My vpip is a little lower than yours, but ranges from ~13% in EP up to 20% on the button. I've been consciously trying to loosen up in late position like all the sages here say I should. I like it so far. I know you're trying to do the same... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Also noticed your raises from LP are "raised 1st in" about 1/3 of the time, compared to 1/6 for me in LP. Don't think this is important, but just a function of the .5/1 game I play in vs. 1/2. Just kind of drives home the point of how my blind stealing and HU play are going to become more important when I move up.

Speaking of moving up, I'm going to do so, but only after a general review of my 18K hands at .5/1. I'm going to be focusing on hands folded post-flop, since I believe my biggest problem is folding winners (went to showdown=28%, won at showdown=59%). Now that you are the image posting master /images/graemlins/smirk.gif, any chance of getting a look at your "more detail" page? I would just be curious to see if anything jumps out as far as fold %'s on certain streets.

Oh yeah, you really need to loosen up 8 off of the button.

[iluzion]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/iluzion/c4380a34.jpg

Ooops.. mines kinda mixed up :-/

[bd8802]

[ QUOTE ]

Ooops.. mines kinda mixed up :-/

[/ QUOTE ]

While the total VPIP numbers converge fast, the position stats do not. You are dividing your already small sample size into 10 pieces. Roughly 200 hands at each position will not give you a very reliable number. But since it seems like you are VPIP more in early position, you should study those hands and see if you are too loose in EP. It could be a leak, but more than likely it is just a sample size issue.

/bd

[tiltaholic]

dude-
you've been here a little while.
i played 1800 hands on sunday. in fact, i wipe my...nevermind.

you know what you are doing (at least enough to kill party 1/2).the whole "changing limits" thing is psychological.
if 1/2 was the lowest limit on party we wouldn't be having this discussion, but we would be b[/i]itchslapping you around for asking if things are ok after less than 2k hands for >4bb/100.

keep playing, let the numbers sort out...

[Dave G.]

Going over my session notes, my more recent sessions have been around 20% VPIP. Overall I'm at 15.1%, but maybe that's just an artifact of playing more timidly at the start as I moved up a level.

I am comfortable having a high-teens VPIP, and I'm doing very well with it so far.

[iluzion]

[ QUOTE ]
dude-
you've been here a little while.
i played 1800 hands on sunday. in fact, i wipe my...nevermind.

you know what you are doing (at least enough to kill party 1/2).the whole "changing limits" thing is psychological.
if 1/2 was the lowest limit on party we wouldn't be having this discussion, but we would be b[/i]itchslapping you around for asking if things are ok after less than 2k hands for >4bb/100.

keep playing, let the numbers sort out...

[/ QUOTE ]

lol thanks tilt, i know the position numbers were just too small of sample size and will prolly sort out, i just thought it was funny they are almost backwards from what they should be..

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
What is everyones VPIP at 1/2? Im sitting at 19.2 over a very small sample size, it sounds good to me, but is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

if it's the right 19% against the right players then 19 is nothing to be worried about at all. I was like 17.5 IIRC

[bottomset]

I ran about 17.5/9.5 and prob wasn't playing enough hands

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Im at 16%, and PF I fold AT 80% of the time, KJo 95%, 22-88 to ANY raise, any suited connector lower than JTs to any raise. 1000 hands is a drop in the bucket, you must be getting colder cards than I've ever got.

[/ QUOTE ]
I only have 1500 hands at 1/2 and I'm at 27/11. I quickly found I had to tighten up considerably from what I'm doing at .5/1. I'm calling or raising most of the hands your folding, and I'm reraising with pocket pairs if I can narrow the field. I'm running passive postflop at 1.05 as I tend to be on draws a lot and just hanging in there waiting for something to come in. My .5/1 aggression is also pretty low at .89, probably for the same reason. I can't push a lot of my weak holdings, but I can call with them getting the right odds. Doing 5BB/100 so far at 1/2 but maybe I'm just running good.


Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 10 handed)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (18.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 27.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Ts Kd (straight, ace high).
UTG+1 has Ah 5c (two pair, aces and fives).
MP1 has Ks Ac (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 27.75 BB. </font>

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed)
Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has Ad Kd (one pair, aces).
Hero has 5d 5h (straight, five high).
Outcome: Hero wins 15.75 BB. </font>

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds.

River: (15.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG+2 has Kh 6s (two pair, jacks and sixes).
Hero has 4d 4h (full house, fours full of jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 19.25 BB. </font>

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (6.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 6c 6s (two pair, queens and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 7.50 BB. </font>

[DMBFan23]

I would check behind the river in hand 4, otherwise very nice hand.

hands 1 and 2 are pretty easy pf folds

3 I would also fold pf but if you decide to play I think cold calling is better.

[2+2 wannabe]

these hands are terrible - hand 4 is the only DECENT one

wow....

[Isura]

23.

[Yako]

Just out of curiosity Tiltaholic, could you please post your misc. tab with the 'show only hands that were not folded' box checked? My stats are similar to yours but my winrate is 3x lower, and I'm just curious to know if it's because you're running better... I'd appreciate it, thanks.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]

now that we've solved that dilemma...who can tell me why i have 1 hand 8 seats off the button??? driving me crazy /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

post from HUSH that might help. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2452489&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1)

[Mister Z]

wow, you're that guy.