When are the limits too high?

[balisong180]

I've read most of the hold'em 2+2 books but I just recently got into internet gambling. I've been playing on pokerstars at .25 .50 limits, but I just recently moved up to .50 1.0 limits. I expected the competition to be tougher but most of the players seemed the same if not worse. My question is: at what limits does the competition get tougher and change from "Small Stakes" players to "Advanced Players". I know this is a general question since there are good players at every level, but I am looking for a more stereotypical answer. Any help would be much appriciated.

[SamJack]

[ QUOTE ]
I've read most of the hold'em 2+2 books but I just recently got into internet gambling. I've been playing on pokerstars at .25 .50 limits, but I just recently moved up to .50 1.0 limits. I expected the competition to be tougher but most of the players seemed the same if not worse. My question is: at what limits does the competition get tougher and change from "Small Stakes" players to "Advanced Players". I know this is a general question since there are good players at every level, but I am looking for a more stereotypical answer. Any help would be much appriciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you start to lose money...

I think the general thoughts on this forum are

1. You will know when you are ready to move up.
2. The competition gets tougher @ each level up.
3. Move up when you have enough BR. Generally thought to be 300BB.

SamJack

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
2. The competition gets tougher @ each level up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not always true.

For instance, the 2/4 games are generally softer than the 1/2 tables.

[mmbt0ne]

In online games, you will find SSHE-type situations up to at least 15/30. There are also going to be plenty of HPFAP 1/2 tables. It's best to understand both books, and know when to adapt your play for each table.

[solucky]

I have now a 4000 BB bankroll and dont move up. Still be upset if i loose 2-300$/day and that happens fast the next level and touch my game.

[balisong180]

What do you guys mean by BB? Like a 300BB. Is this in reference to the size of your bankrole in relation to the size of the game? My online bankrole is tiny. I started with $50 on Sat and am at about $120. I read some where that you want to have about 100 times the size of the Big blind. Is this wrong?

[AngryCola]

When people talk about their bankroll being 300 BBs, they are referring to 300 "big bets".

Big bets are the larger bets on the turn and river in limit games.

So, in a .50/1 limit game, a big bet is $1.

[SamJack]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you guys mean by BB? Like a 300BB. Is this in reference to the size of your bankrole in relation to the size of the game? My online bankrole is tiny. I started with $50 on Sat and am at about $120. I read some where that you want to have about 100 times the size of the Big blind. Is this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

BB = Big Bet (NOT Big Blind)

For 1/2 game that would be $2.
Therefore 300BB would be $600. So the guideline would be when you have $600 and you feel confident that you are a winning player and .50/1, move up to 1/2 game.

100 X Big Blind for moving up is not such a good advice.
Variance in the limit game is very high and it's very easy to go on a streak even if you are a great player and go broke with 100 X big Blind (or 50BB)

SamJack

[Brainwalter]

People on here recommend a bankroll at minimum 300 times the size of the big BET, not big blind. That's 6 times as large as what your other source said.

[balisong180]

Well, I feel stupid. Thanks for your advice. I guess I'll stay at .25 - .50 till my bankrole gets bigger. Are there any online specific books that anyone would recommend?

[iluzion]

what .25/.50 game are you comparing to .5/1? .25/.50 on stars is VERY similar to the .5/1 on party, but compared to the .5/1 on stars, its an entirely different game.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I feel stupid. Thanks for your advice. I guess I'll stay at .25 - .50 till my bankrole gets bigger. Are there any online specific books that anyone would recommend?

[/ QUOTE ]

Internet Texas Hold'em is worth a read. But I'd focus on SSH as your main study material.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

[ QUOTE ]
It's best to understand both books, and know when to adapt your play for each table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good advice IMO. Study both books and you will find situations to apply each of them in lots of lower stakes games.

[StacysMom]

goblinmason is bluffing, he can barely read, much less read 2 books

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
3. Move up when you have enough BR. Generally thought to be 300BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think this advice is bad and am really curious how everyone agrees with it. For example, if you are playing $2/4 and want to move to $3/6, you'd only need to make 150 BB's. You can do that in just a few hours if you go on a lucky run, that doesn't mean you should move up. You have not mastered all the intricacies of the game.

[olavfo]

[ QUOTE ]

For instance, the 2/4 games are generally softer than the 1/2 tables.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know the reason for this?

olavfo

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

For instance, the 2/4 games are generally softer than the 1/2 tables.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know the reason for this?

olavfo

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this, but if $2/4 is softer I think it's because most casual poker plays like to "gamble" a little bit, i.e. play $2/4 instead of $1/2. You'll see this at a casino, where the MINIMUM game is $3/6 and at least $5/10 on busier nights. These players are not going to play $1/2 if they play online.

My friends tell me $1/2 is pretty tough, rocky and stuff but I doubt it's THAT tough. I think Party $3/6 full is when players start getting a lot tougher, tigher and more agressive. $5/10 is generally more agressive but I find that the river agression is not as high as I thought it'd be at $5/10 (people missing river bets).

About BR, I think winrate is more important, being able to establish a 2 BB/100 over 20-30k hands is much more important than how many big bets are in your BR. Besides, MOST people who are making money playing poker will reload even if they go completely broke, so BR size is irrelevant in a lot of cases. The players playing with 1000 BB bankrolls shoulda move up eons ago according to the "300 BB rule", but I think it's best to stay where you feel comfortable and winning until you're absolutely sure you're beating the game pretty good.



John's whoring blog (http://pyroponic.blogspot.com)

[MicroBob]

on party the generally accepted reason why 1/2 might be tougher than 2/4 is because there are 6-max games available at the 1/2 level...but not at 2/4.

So any 'action' type players at the 1/2 level will gravitate towards the 6-max games. This isn't an option at 2/4.

The same logic seems to apply at 5/10 on party. The 6-max games at this limit are known to be quite juicy while the 10-player games at 5/10 are generally believed to be a bit tightish much of the time.

[kdog]

[ QUOTE ]
on party the generally accepted reason why 1/2 might be tougher than 2/4 is because there are 6-max games available at the 1/2 level...but not at 2/4.

So any 'action' type players at the 1/2 level will gravitate towards the 6-max games. This isn't an option at 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a logical argument Bob and may be true for Party although neither limit is very tough there. Overall across the net though, $1-2 is NOT tougher than $2-4.

[TheNoodleMan]

Bonus whores are overflowing at 1-2, and they aren't known for giving action.

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
on party the generally accepted reason why 1/2 might be tougher than 2/4 is because there are 6-max games available at the 1/2 level...but not at 2/4.

So any 'action' type players at the 1/2 level will gravitate towards the 6-max games. This isn't an option at 2/4.

The same logic seems to apply at 5/10 on party. The 6-max games at this limit are known to be quite juicy while the 10-player games at 5/10 are generally believed to be a bit tightish much of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, some people start at .5/1. Those who don't lose their ass move up to 1/2.

Some people start at 2/4 (which seems to be pretty much the standard lowest limit for B&M casinos). Those who don't lose their ass move up to 3/6.

Significantly fewer people start at 1/2 or 3/6, and others generally don't move there unless they are winning players at a lower limit.

[bicyclekick]

About 100/200. Maybe 30/60 if you play poker stars, but I haven't played there.

/edit - actually maybe the 30/60 on party too...that game isn't advanced really, it just requires a little different approach cause the biggest mistakes are often people overplaying their hands and it just takes a different skill to capitalize...it's not really advanced, though.

15/30 is definately still small stakes.

[StacysMom]

I think everyone who says "PP 1/2 full is a rock garden, may have
1. Never played it (Just repeated what otheres have said)
2. Only compare it to .5/1
o3
3. Have poor table selection

I have played it and been at many tables with a VPIP over 35%... no problems with playing 4 tables of VPIP over 25%, If you guys think thats a rock garden stay the faak away from 3/6

[kdog]

[ QUOTE ]
Bonus whores are overflowing at 1-2, and they aren't known for giving action.

[/ QUOTE ]

A high percentage of which are tight/passive. I stand by my statement, $1-2 is NOT tougher than $2-4.

[SamJack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3. Move up when you have enough BR. Generally thought to be 300BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think this advice is bad and am really curious how everyone agrees with it. For example, if you are playing $2/4 and want to move to $3/6, you'd only need to make 150 BB's. You can do that in just a few hours if you go on a lucky run, that doesn't mean you should move up. You have not mastered all the intricacies of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why it needs be taken in conjunction with advice #1 and #2

[ QUOTE ]
1. You will know when you are ready to move up.
2. The competition gets tougher @ each level up.

[/ QUOTE ]

[zCereal]

as a person who JUST moved from 1/2 to 2/4 (been a few weeks)

my first hand knowledge is that 1/2 is tighter then 2/4, table selection is alot more important in 1/2 then 2/4, i've been sitting in many a rock garden at 1/2 with the table VPIP being the same as MY vpip. i quickly left these tables when i noticed it. but i don't find these tables at 2/4. i think alot of people spend alot of time at 1/2 when bulding a bankroll where as the fish tend to gravitate towards the 2 ends of it, .50/1 and 2/4. this is just my theory. consider 1/2 the test of your .50/1 skills before you move upto the higher low limits where the fishies swim more freely

[SlyGuy]

I have only been playing a few months. I started out at .5/1 and won there without really knowing much of anything. I moved up to 2/4 won a bunch there (could have been great cards not really sure) then dropped down to 1/2 ( read SSHE which showed i knew much less than I thought i did) which seemed way tougher than 2/4.

There may be some truth to 1/2 being tighter from my limited experience. I am back at .5/1 testing my skills at a 5.5BB/100 over 5k hands now ( unsustainable i am sure).My bankroll is at the size where I can move up to 1/2, but I am not sure if i should.

[pmuir10]

What about moving up limits in NL?

[GrekeHaus]

I play 5/10 and 10/20, and I rarely have to use anything from HPFAP (though I've read it several times). You'll know when you've reached a limit where ABC poker doesn't seem to work anymore because you'll realize that you aren't getting any action any more. At an average 10/20 full table, I usually find 2-4 good players, a few LAGs, and the rest are usually typical SSHE opponents.

The key to winning at the 10/20 limit is just to identify which players are which type. Once you do that, you need to be able to alter your style appropriately depending on who is in the pot. You need to apply your ABC style of play against the typical opponents. You need to raise and call more liberally against the LAGs. Finally, you just need to avoid losing too much against the good players. You don't even need to focus on beating them (although playing tough against them heads up is a good way to prepare for higher limits), you just need to make sure they're not neutralizing your advantage.

I apply some of the ideas found in HPFAP, but for the most part, beating this level is still pretty straight forward.

At micro limits however, just focus on mastering the basics. You probably have leaks in your game, so you should focus on identifying them and fixing them. If you find yourself in a game that's too tough, just leave and find a better one. At Party, another good game is always just around the corner!!!

In a nutshell, you don't need to worry about advanced games for a long time.

[girgy44]

Party 6 max is my game and the first time i noticed a difference was when I moved to 10/20, 5/10 is really not that hard while 10/20 is quite difficult.

[GrekeHaus]

I haven't played much SH, but yes, I'd say even at the full ring games, 10/20 is much harder than 5/10.

[Rudbaeck]

You got to identify the table texture. It's clearly possible to find a 40/80 game that is a textbook SSH game if your local casino is flooded with drunk conventioneers, while in the daytime you can probably find a Party 1/2 game where you'd be better served playing HFAP than SSH. Though in the latter case you'd reasonably switch tables...

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

For example, if you are playing $2/4 and want to move to $3/6, you'd only need to make 150 BB's. You can do that in just a few hours if you go on a lucky run, that doesn't mean you should move up. You have not mastered all the intricacies of the game.


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need to master the intricacies of the game completely to make moving up a good plan.

If you have the good judgement to know when you're being outplayed vs being unlucky, and the discipline to drop down if that happens, and the money to soak up a loss, then moving up quickly is the most profitable approach.

Those are big "if"s though, especially the ones about judgement and discipline.

Guy.

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
When are the limits too high?

[/ QUOTE ]

When your nuts are in your throat from the time you sit in till the time you sit out.

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

For example, if you are playing $2/4 and want to move to $3/6, you'd only need to make 150 BB's. You can do that in just a few hours if you go on a lucky run, that doesn't mean you should move up. You have not mastered all the intricacies of the game.


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need to master the intricacies of the game completely to make moving up a good plan.

If you have the good judgement to know when you're being outplayed vs being unlucky, and the discipline to drop down if that happens, and the money to soak up a loss, then moving up quickly is the most profitable approach.

Those are big "if"s though, especially the ones about judgement and discipline.

Guy.

[/ QUOTE ]


This mirrors my philosophy.

I have recently moved up to 3/6, despite not being able to claim a 2+BB/100 winrate. I am now currently struggling to tread water (-0.5BB/100 after 3k hands), but I believe that by exposing myself to better opponents, I am forcing myself to improve at a faster rate than if I had stayed at 2/4. I hate losing more than I hate not winning at a high enough rate - so more incentive.

Clearly, this is not a good short term tactic financially, but I hope it might get me where I want to go faster.