OESD, flush draw and overs vs. another 2+2er

[jacki]

Thoughts on how either of us played this?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1615)
MP1 (t2125)
Hero (t3609)
CO (t1020)
Button <font color="orange"> (trout)</font> (t1325)
SB (t680)
BB (t3126)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button :#A500AF(trout)/ raises to t375</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t225.

Flop: (t825) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">trout bets t250</font>, Hero calls t250.

Turn: (t1325) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1050</font>, trout calls t700 (All-In).

Final Pot: t3075

[jah0550]

I think you should have mucked PF, because a hand like QJs can get you into this kind of trouble. You are a huge chip leader, why put your stack at risk with a marginal hand? You already control 1/3 of the chips in play. Wait until the blinds are higher to try and steal with a hand like QJs. Just my 2 cents though.

[hurlyburly]

Warning bells at the PF reraise. That raise sure smacks of a high PP to me (esp being a trout). What your holding makes his hand more likely to be the KK-AA that he's representing here.

On the flop you are in a predicament, but should still be folding to his raise. If you had the flush draw there as well I can see calling or putting him to the test.

The turn I'm thinking I'm at least a 2 to 1 dog and possibly drawing dead to his boat and check/fold with plenty of stealing chips left.

[Phil Van Sexton]

I like the raise preflop, but then a trout puts in 25% of his stack. This is very concerning. I fold at this point unless I have some reason to think he's putting a move on me with less than a monster. This is certainly possible.

Let's say you know he's a very aggressive player and therefore you call his raise. Fine.

If I called preflop, I would push on that flop. Normally, I'd semi-bluff with a check-raise against an aggressive player, but he doesn't have enough chips left. If I check and he bets, he's pretty much pot commited and my semi-bluff is pointless.

On the other hand, I don't want to check/call. If you check, he's going to bet with any hand, and your pot odds/implied odds aren't going to be that great.

A push might get him to lay some hands better than yours down (AK, AQ, 88).

Once you check and he bets small (250), you have to call. The push on the turn is fine I guess, but it would have much better if you'd just done that on the flop.

[hyde]

I think Phil handled the thought process.
What kind of a boat did he beat you with????

[faquewdikhed]

I don't hear any bells ringing about the raise.

Standard 3xBB raise from the button. Trout has &gt;20BB. I'll make that raise with almost anything reasonable from the button, especially if I think BB is going to fold QJs every time I do it.

If I do decide to call PF with QJs, I'm raising or folding the turn bet, read dependent.

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't hear any bells ringing about the raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Neither did I. He makes this raise with a pretty wide range of hands....baby pairs on up, and a lot of mid-to-high Aces.
I also thought it was a small enough raise that I could see a flop....T225 more intoa a T 550 pot.
The flop bet also was small enough to call. I didn't think about pushing there, don't think an OESD is enough to push with.

Once the turn hits, giving me at least 15 outs, possibly as many as 4 more, I thought pushing was pretty easy.
I thought there was a good chance he'd fold AJ-AK, and maybe fold some other pocket pairs.



Also: We're friends that play home games together regularly. We definitely want to beat each other.

[yoadrians]

[/ QUOTE ]
Also: We're friends that play home games together regularly. We definitely want to beat each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's me. I'm the 'villain' in this hand. And, for what it's worth, I had 66.

My thought process: Like jacki mentions above, we play together quite frequently. He's a solid and aggressive player who, when he has a healthy stack, raises several hands. I put him on a straight-up blind-steal, so that's why I re-raised. But ...

He called. I probably should've laid into him a little harder on the flop - my 225 or 250 bet was too small to get him to lay down any drawing hand. When he pushed on the turn, though, I thought about it for a while. I 'knew' that he's not pushing a made hand here, and put him on some kind of a draw. Had no idea how many outs he had, but I figured that, at that time, I had him beat. So, I called ... pretty much because I thought I had a good read on him and that my 66 was good. Like I said, though, he had, like 1,200 outs on that river, and ...

J comes on the river, and I'm out. Patted myself on the back for at least 'reading' him the right way, but still a little upset with my weak flop bet.

More thoughts??? I know we're both interested in feedback from this hand.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
don't think an OESD is enough to push with.
Once the turn hits, giving me at least 15 outs, possibly as many as 4 more, I thought pushing was pretty easy.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here are your chances of winning with QJs vs 66 on the flop and turn:

flop (http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&amp;b=Td+9s+5c&amp;d=&amp;h=Qd+Jd%0D%0A6c+6h) = 55.35%

turn (http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&amp;b=Td+9s+5c+5d&amp;d=&amp;h=Qd+Jd%0D%0A6c+6h) = 45.45%

You have more outs on the turn, but you only have the river to catch one of them. Therefore, your chances of winning actually got worse after the turn.

In addition, you let him bet the flop and you called. Now he is more pot committed and your fold equity is worse.

By waiting until the turn, your pot equity is worse and your fold equity is much worse. This is why I recommended open pushing the flop.

Your opponent said:

[ QUOTE ]
I 'knew' that he's not pushing a made hand here, and put him on some kind of a draw

[/ QUOTE ]

It is very easy to justify a call when the pot odds are ridiculous like they were for him on the turn. It would've been interesting to see how strong his read was if you put him all-in for 1000 on the flop.