Missing Bets on the River - Examples

Lately I have been wondering about several hands, where it turns out that I missed bets on the river. All these hands are (from an admittedly juicy) 10/20:

1) I have 87s, and limp from middle after 2 early limpers, one more limper and the blinds complete. Six people see the flop. Flop comes 87K with two spades. Check, Check, Check, a solid player bet's and I raise. Late position folds, SB calls easily, BB folds, the other two call. Turn comes a 4 of clubs [87K4 board], checked to me, I bet and all call. On the river comes a red Queen [87K4Q board - no flush]. Checked to me, and I checked, figuring at least one person had a king (I feared the solid player to my right) and might check raise top two once the flush draw missed. In addition, I figured at least one flush draw would not call, if not two of them, giving me only 1:1 return on the bet (from a hand with a pair of Kings).

Results of the hand: SB showed Qx spades, first limper had K9o (juicy games, I know), and the solid player later said he had 45 spades. I won the pot, but missed the bet on the river.


2) 5 handed game. Folded to me on the button, I have KK, and raise. SB three bets. She was a pretty aggresive player, who previously has raised EVERY ace she saw, and when she won the blinds, showed off her ace to everyone several times.

The BB ran away, and my 4 bet pre-flop was called. Flop comes rags, SB checks, I bet, SB calls. The turn comes an ace, SB checks, and I check. River comes a brick, SB checks, and here I checked.

SB showed QQ, and I took it down with KK.

This one annoyed me even more, cause I felt that I really missed a bet, given the SB's propensity to bet her aces. The way she just shut down after I made it 4 bets on the flop threw me off at the river though, it was not her style to check the river after I checked the turn.

At that time, I was thinking perhaps she was worried about a dominated ace, and would just check call her way down with it to make sure.

3) 5 people limp, and I'm on the button with T2 spades. I tip my cap to Doyle, and throw in two red chips. 8 people see the flop: T28 with two diamonds. Checked to my right, who bets. I make it 2 bets, and SB makes it 3 bets! SB was a little old lady, who didn't really do much all night, so this was a surprise. BB cold calls three bets (hmm), and all others fold, including the orignal better. I capped it, and me and the blinds were off to see the turn.

Turn comes a brick, SB checks, and BB bets! BB is a tricky experienced player, and fearing a set refusing to give free cards, I decide to just call, as does SB. The river comes another brick (no flush), and it's checked to me. I was pretty lost in the hand at this point, so I checked. SB shows AA, BB mucks and I win the hand with tens over deuces.

I wish I remember more about the turn and river cards in this last hand, but I don't. I know it's important, but calling them bricks isn't far off the truth, I don't think there was a possible straight on board.

How could I have played it differently? Was there a good reason to bet the river in any of these hands?

Thanks,
lysis

[skp]

As I think you already realize, you have a clear bet on all three hands at the river.

Hand No. 1 - Why fear KQ? Firstly, KQ may have played it harder on the flop. Secondly, they all checked on the river and checking to get in a river checkraise is usually a dicey proposition. Besides, if he has KQ and raises (which he might not), ...well, that's poker. But you'll find that the river card in most cases will not have helped anyone when they all check to you. Failing to bet the river encourages people to call you on the turn on future hands as they know that they only have to invest 1 big to find out what you have.

Hand No. 2

I would not 4 bet preflop i.e. for deception. Good check on the turn when the Ace hits. But given that she checked twice after the Ace hit, you should value bet the river. From her perspective, you could easily be bluffing because she checked twice. This therefore means that she might even call with King high let alone QQ and the like.

Hand No. 3

In deference to Doyle, we'll excuse the preflop call :-)

On the flop, I probably would not 4 bet but 4 betting is okay.

On the turn, you ought to consider raising as your hand is vulnerable. On the other hand, you have this chap betting into you despite the fact that you 4 bet the flop so I can't quarrel too much with just calling the turn.

On the river, again, you have a clear value bet when they all check to you. Do you think that any of them would check the river with a hand that is better than yours? It's clear that all that raising on the flop was to eliminate players, avoid giving cheap cards, posture a little etc. The check on the river reveals the true colors of all the earlier show of strength.

1) If the only K's this player would have offsuit is KQ, then a check is correct, but only if they would have KQ AND not bet out with it. Given the stakes and description, this is almost impossible. So you did miss this bet. You can also fold to a check raise from the player you put on a K. A bluff behind you seems unlikely, so I woudl not trap on the river.

2) Turn check - good. River check - ? Your opponent may not call, but almost no one could check an ace twice here.
She should get some credit for checking the QQ. I think 4 betting preflop cost you a lot of $, as she would have fired throughout, and probably 3 bet a flop raise.

3) Pot is enormous, so a turn raise is in order. Barring that, when everyone checks to you, you should value bet pretty strong hands, since the action indicates that you are not being trapped to bluff. knowing the exact turn and river card would help you and everyone analyze the decision. A major reason to raise the turn is to drop out another ten, which can easily river your tens up. On a side note, I would never play this hand from the button.


Hope this is helpful.

"As I think you already realize, you have a clear bet on all three hands at the river."

Well, I didn't quite realize I had clear bets. But it's good to hear that I did :-)

"Hand No. 1 - Why fear KQ? Firstly, KQ may have played it harder on the flop. Secondly, they all checked on the river and checking to get in a river checkraise is usually a dicey proposition. Besides, if he has KQ and raises (which he might not), ...well, that's poker. But you'll find that the river card in most cases will not have helped anyone when they all check to you. Failing to bet the river encourages people to call you on the turn on future hands as they know that they only have to invest 1 big to find out what you have."

I feared KQ cause I put the solid player on a K, and thought that he would only play KQ, AQ, and maybe KJs from there. I know he would have raised AQ either before the flop, or re-raised the flop, so the most likely hand was KQo, with maybe 20% chance of KJs. With either KQo or KJs he might limp before the flop from early, and only call the raise behind him on the flop.

You make a good point about image though, and not betting the river. Thanks.

"Hand No. 2 - I would not 4 bet preflop i.e. for deception. Good check on the turn when the Ace hits. But given that she checked twice after the Ace hit, you should value bet the river. From her perspective, you could easily be bluffing because she checked twice. This therefore means that she might even call with King high let alone QQ and the like."

Yeah, the 4 bet was costly, another poster already mentioned that.

"Hand No. 3 - In deference to Doyle, we'll excuse the preflop call :-)"

Yes, let's :-) *cough*

"On the flop, I probably would not 4 bet but 4 betting is okay."

I felt someone was sticking around for a flush, and I wasn't gonna let that go cheap (which I later did though anyways...)

"On the turn, you ought to consider raising as your hand is vulnerable. On the other hand, you have this chap betting into you despite the fact that you 4 bet the flop so I can't quarrel too much with just calling the turn."

Again, my read was strong that this person held trips. I don't mind sticking to the read on the turn, but do mind that I didn't adjust when the river was checked...

"On the river, again, you have a clear value bet when they all check to you. Do you think that any of them would check the river with a hand that is better than yours? It's clear that all that raising on the flop was to eliminate players, avoid giving cheap cards, posture a little etc. The check on the river reveals the true colors of all the earlier show of strength."

Yeah, you're right, no-one checks trips on the river when the flush doesn't hit. The board didn't even pair, so I was not counterfitted either. I was just thrown off by being bet into on the turn. Good play there by the BB, who was evidently on a diamond draw, or had top pair with top kicker.

thanks for the reply.

"1) If the only K's this player would have offsuit is KQ, then a check is correct, but only if they would have KQ AND not bet out with it. Given the stakes and description, this is almost impossible. So you did miss this bet. You can also fold to a check raise from the player you put on a K. A bluff behind you seems unlikely, so I woudl not trap on the river."

You're right, there are two conditions that need to be met:

1- the player has KQ
2- the player would check-raise on the river

While I did put the player on KQ (80%) or KJs (20%), I now realize, from what I know of him, that this player would not check-raise that hand at the river. Good point.

"2) Turn check - good. River check - ? Your opponent may not call, but almost no one could check an ace twice here.
She should get some credit for checking the QQ. I think 4 betting preflop cost you a lot of $, as she would have fired throughout, and probably 3 bet a flop raise."

Yup. thanks.

"3) Pot is enormous, so a turn raise is in order. Barring that, when everyone checks to you, you should value bet pretty strong hands, since the action indicates that you are not being trapped to bluff. knowing the exact turn and river card would help you and everyone analyze the decision. A major reason to raise the turn is to drop out another ten, which can easily river your tens up. On a side note, I would never play this hand from the button."

I don't think I would raise the turn in that situation, even if I had it over to do again. A player who cold called three bet's on the flop comes out firing on the turn, I put her on a very strong hand.

thanks for the reply.

The River

you have two split pair
no straight or flush possible
bet your god-damn hand

The Almighty

[Gabe]

$20 lost probably twice as valuable to you as $20 won. Maybe more.

You are missing several value bets here my friend. These call really add up and it's a catastrophe to your bankroll not to capitalize on them.

PokerPrince

My reason for not four-betting the flop on the T2s hand is that there are so many bad cards for you on the turn, which can beat you, make you even more vulnerable and even kill you. You want to see a blank with this hand. Why punish a flush draw on the flop? Counting in the chance for a running pair and that he may VERY well have a straight draw to go with it, he's not taking the worst of it on the flop with a flush draw, three-handed.

See a blank, and the pop it when you really have the edge, with just one card to come.

lars