Did I play this hand correctly?

[nukemar25]

I just moved up to 2/4 and this is the first hand I have posted. I would just like opinions on how I played it. Particularly I would like opinions on my call on the turn. As for reads, the table was loose and semi-aggressive with a maniac on my right who was UTG+1. MP3 was a LAP and CO was a LPP. No reads on the others in the hand.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (14 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (24 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 40 BB

[brassnuts]

The flop gives me a headache, I don't even want to comment.

Easy fold on the turn. Not only aren't you getting proper odds to call, there's a very good chance this is going to cost you more than just the 2 bets to call here.

[Argus]

Why not raise to play short against the maniac? This move depends on UTG's standards from that position, but if you think UTG+1 will overplay then it seems like a good move. The flop call is close: the pot is going to be big, and 8:1 on a gutshot is fine considering implied odds,the backdoor flush, and an overcard that is good once in a rare while (I discount it to a single out in this situation). Getting 8:1 again the second time I still call two more, but I disregard any ace outs now, and even value the flush less until and if the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif or Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif comes on the turn. With 9:1 on the turn you only have to make up 2 BB on the river if you hit, which seems likely given the action, so go ahead and call. River is obvious.

I'm not sure what you didn't like about this hand, you just made a series of close decisions, but gigantic pots with draws to the nuts are not the time to fold when the odds are correct.

[kurosh]

You are a fish.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop gives me a headache, I don't even want to comment.

Easy fold on the turn. Not only aren't you getting proper odds to call, there's a very good chance this is going to cost you more than just the 2 bets to call here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is it an easy fold? Let's discount to only 3 queen outs left, it gets capped on the turn, and there's one caller besides you, SB, and UTG+1. I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption. Chances are your queen out is not a split pot, and in the circumstance described you are getting 6:1 immediately. You only have to get another 5 BB on the river, and if it was capped on the turn I don't think a queen dropping is going to freeze your action so bad that you don't make it up. 5 BB is a lot, but this table has already indicated it is ready to go the distance.

[nukemar25]

Thank you for your input. I was thinking pretty much along the lines of what you have stated. I counted 3.5 outs for the Q's and 1 out for the A's on the turn. I know I was not getting immediate odds but with the maniac on my right who would raise and re-raise any pair I felt I was getting implied odds on the turn call. My biggest concern was a 3-bet from the SB which would induce a cap from the maniac and force me to call 2 bets cold again. If I was closing the action on the turn I would not have questioned my call at all but the possibility of having to call two more I felt made my call marginal.

[nukemar25]

Thank you for your valuable advice. It will certainly help my game.

[Chris Dow]

Fold the flop when it is 2 more cold to you. Since it can end up capped (which it did) and since any spade is likely to sink your draw here, you should fold that flop. I can't even work through the turn, but calling 2 cold on only a gutshot when all evidence makes it look like it can very likely end up being 2 more cold to you has to be terrible. Fold flop.

[kurosh]

I don't know why there are so many long replies. Move down to .5/1. This hand was horribly misplayed. You lack a basic understanding of pot odds.

Fold/raise PF, more towards folding.
Fold/raise the flop, much, MUCH more towards folding.
Fold the turn.

[nukemar25]

1. I called here because this is what SSHE suggests. Why fold or raise?
2. Why fold on the flop here getting 8 to 1 on a draw to the nuts in an already large pot that is obviously going to get much larger? What does raising buy here on the flop? It will most certainly not buy any outs with the ten, nobody with a four flush is going to fold, and why would I want anyone else to fold when I am drawing to the nuts in a 7-way pot?
3. I agree that the turn call is marginal but not an obvious fold as you imply. Would you still fold on the turn here if you were closing the action?

[Chris Dow]

1. Just calling as the second person in with ATo is pretty weak. Fold and Raise are better lines.
2. You are massively overestimating and overusing the term "drawing to the nuts." Your draw is terrible with only 3 clean outs that, given the flop action, would all be very vulnerable to both the board pairing and the flush coming. On the flop you SHOULD fold to the first bet because you aren't closing the action and this is the sort of flop that frequently generates more than 1 bet going in on the flop. On top of that you have negative implied odds on the ace since your posts reveal that even on the turn you are counting the ace as a partial out. After this action on the turn hitting the ace will *never* win the pot for you.
3. The turn call is not marginal, it makes me cringe in pain. You called 2 cold in a spot that looks like it might easily go 3-4 with a gutshot that has only 3 clean outs. Terrible, period.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why there are so many long replies.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
River: (24 BB)
Final Pot: 40 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero has a reasonable expectation of a big payday when he hits. The implied odds make up for the immediate pot odds that are lacking.

As for your suggestion of raising the flop ahead of calling, I can't see it cleaning up any outs or gaining a cheap card. Why do it?

[Chris Dow]

This payday logic is awful. As far as the poster saying raise flop, that is a bad play too but if I recall correctly he was basically saying fold but if you were even going to be crazy enough to play you'd want to raise or something to that effect. You guys are considering only "implied odds" that barely make this hand worth it and ignoring the "reverse implied odds" and also "possible effective odds" that make this hand a complete debacle.

[nukemar25]

Thank you for all of the replies. They were all helpful and I respect your opinions. I am looking forward to posting more hands in the future and learning more.

[Chris Dow]

No problem, definitely just trying to help. I very adamantly believe this is a bad play for you to make. And your long term results will improve without it and similar plays.