Playing under mind altering substances [Archive]

Lestat

03-29-2005, 02:29 AM

I used to drink a can of this now then and cuz it really got me Jonesing. I felt incredibly focused. Nowadays, a lot of the younger kids drink this stuff like friggin water.

I haven't drank it since this Dr. friend of mine told me how hard this stuff is on your liver. If he's right, there's gonna be a lot of 40 year olds with some real bad livers in the next 30 years.

Mark Heide

03-29-2005, 02:31 AM

Back when I went to college, I knew someone that was a straight A student. When he studied, he would always smoke pot, watch tv, and listen to the stereo. I can't do any of these things, or I would be broke. To each their own. Good Luck
Mark

SA125

03-29-2005, 03:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Excluding alcohol, do you think you play better or worse with mind altering substances? Do you ever take some on purpose to play better? This includes caffeine.

Personally, after I smoke pot, I find I can focus much better and for longer periods of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually make posts as ridiculous as this when I'm drunk. The people I've played against who were stoned were anything but focused.

A long time ago I knew a guy who smoked pot from the time he woke up to the time he went to sleep and he led what appeared to be a normal life. He basically spent all of his time awake stoned. That was his normal state of mind. Guys like him are few and far between.

kt421

03-29-2005, 03:36 AM

I smoke a fair bit of cannabis. In fact, the college experience depicted above is eerily familiar. Cannabis also helps me focus. I read a recent study suggesting that "ADHD" teens often self-medicate with cannabis for similar reasons.

Certainly, if ADHD had been a diagnosis when I was in school, I would have fit the profile.

Then again, ADHD-like symptoms appear prevalent in this community...Isn't a certain level of multi-tasking (to use a more accepted descriptor of similar phenomena) necessary to multi-table and surf the forums?

bobbyi

03-29-2005, 04:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The people I've played against who were stoned were anything but focused.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's because when you play against the focused stoned guys, you don't know that they're stoned.

goodguy_1

03-29-2005, 05:06 AM

does RedBull count?

Argus

03-29-2005, 08:18 AM

I find clonazepam can reduce my tilt factor by about 10,000%. Since that stuff is crazy addictive and bad for you I've only tried it three times, but all three times it gave me the relaxation and patience to get unstuck from brutal sessions (-30BB or worse).

I'm up lifetime on LSD (insignificant sample size).

Tommy Angelo

03-29-2005, 09:43 AM

Public-service replay:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The people I've played against who were stoned were anything but focused.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's because when you play against the focused stoned guys, you don't know that they're stoned.

[/ QUOTE ]

philnewall

03-29-2005, 09:58 AM

Smoking pot can improve focus, and reduce tilt for short periods of time, but when you come down the concentration goes completely out the window. Of course it depends on what your smoking, but if you wanna play long sessions I would advise to keep well away from the strong skunk cos it fucks you up.

rmarotti

03-29-2005, 12:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I smoke a fair bit of cannabis. In fact, the college experience depicted above is eerily familiar. Cannabis also helps me focus. I read a recent study suggesting that "ADHD" teens often self-medicate with cannabis for similar reasons.

Certainly, if ADHD had been a diagnosis when I was in school, I would have fit the profile.

Then again, ADHD-like symptoms appear prevalent in this community...Isn't a certain level of multi-tasking (to use a more accepted descriptor of similar phenomena) necessary to multi-table and surf porn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed your post.

Boris

03-29-2005, 12:19 PM

Any sort of stimulant is very bad for your game. This includes coffee and red bull and I'm pretty sure it would hold true for coke, meth, etc...

Downers like alcohol and prescription drugs are probably not that bad for young males with lots of testosterone. The one danger is that you will play too passively.

AviD

03-29-2005, 12:52 PM

J.R.

03-29-2005, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Any sort of stimulant is very bad for your game. This includes coffee and red bull ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree, but I'm a caffeine junkie. Why do you think this?

astroglide

03-29-2005, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Any sort of stimulant is very bad for your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd totally disagree with that. adderall, etc would probably help a ton.

nykenny

03-29-2005, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
does RedBull count?

[/ QUOTE ]

i also drink redbull while i play, and it doesn't help my game.

but again, i am helpless

Boris

03-29-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i'd totally disagree with that. adderall, etc would probably help a ton.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea if you're ADD they probably would help a ton. For me it would be a disaster.

Boris

03-29-2005, 02:33 PM

Most of the time people take stimulants to fight fatigue. Common affects of fatigue include irritability and anxiousness. Stimulants will make you feel less tired, but in my case at least, they amplify the irritability/anxiousness. In my experience this is a disaster for a poker player.

astroglide

03-29-2005, 02:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yea if you're ADD they probably would help a ton. For me it would be a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's rampant on college campuses for studying. a friend took some last saturday to focus on cleaning his house. the entire world doesn't have ADD. there are lots of stimulants that improve focus/motivation, and adderall is one of them.

Gabe

03-29-2005, 02:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Public-service replay:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The people I've played against who were stoned were anything but focused.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's because when you play against the focused stoned guys, you don't know that they're stoned.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

girgy44

03-29-2005, 02:38 PM

I play high all the time, and feel that it helps me win somehow, maybe I just run well high which is fine with me.

Boris

03-29-2005, 02:42 PM

I'll have to check it out for myself.

TStoneMBD

03-29-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the time people take stimulants to fight fatigue. Common affects of fatigue include irritability and anxiousness. Stimulants will make you feel less tired, but in my case at least, they amplify the irritability/anxiousness. In my experience this is a disaster for a poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

ive never smoked pot before so i cant tell you how it helps me focus, im very interested in this discussion however.

as for caffeine and other similiar stimulants, they are very, very bad for a poker player for the reasons that boris mentioned.

astroglide

03-29-2005, 02:56 PM

well it's still a stimulant, needs a prescription, is probably addictive, etc. i haven't used it and wouldn't recommend it, i was just pointing out that such things exist. i knew lots of people that took it while they were in college.

Boris

03-29-2005, 03:02 PM

First you say it improves focus and motivation and then you say you don't recommend it. WTF? You're sending some mixed signals Mr. Glide.

AviD

03-29-2005, 03:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i knew lots of people that took it while they were in college.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, are you saying you never went to college or just hung out with a bunch of stimulant junkies while you were there? Or both?

CanKid

03-29-2005, 03:07 PM

I have a bad back, some B&M sessions hurt worse than others, a beer or two really helps tone down my shuffling in seat and makes me feel more comfortable in general.

philnewall

03-29-2005, 03:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]

ive never smoked pot before so i cant tell you how it helps me focus, im very interested in this discussion however.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the casual user, after smoking some chronic buds, your sensitivity to stimuli will increase, as will the speed and intensity of your thought processes. The main affects for me are a complete inability to tilt, ability to make unorthodox plays based on reads etc.

However, usually this phase dooesnt last long, maybe an hour for a pair of virgin lungs, more likely 1/2 an hour when I was toking heavy like.

After this you will start feeling generally down and tired, focus will go and you will end up staring blankly at the screen robotically clicking away, reverting likely to a weak-tight style.

Usally the only cure to this is go eat some food, take some uppers, or smoke more pot....which generally causes problems, especially when you start in the morning, as the cycle simply repeats itself, except the troughs are deeper, and the waves are lower.

However, when you start smoking regularly, ie at least twice a day, the problems just compound themselves, any improvement in concentration just disappears, after smoking your heartbeat will start racing, your head will be [censored] up with general haze and mindless paranoia. This is why I have completely quit the herbs now.

That has been my experiance with skunk, a particuarly potent form of weed. However, I've heard good things about hash cakes, they are milder and much longer lasting, as they go through the digestive system instead of from your lungs into your head.

astroglide

03-29-2005, 03:13 PM

it does improve focus and motivation. IT IS ALSO A STIMULANT DRUG. is this really tough to grasp boris?

This drug is classified as a Schedule II controlled Substance. This means:

(A) The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse.
(B) The drug or other substance has a currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States or a currently accepted medical use with severe restrictions.
(C) Abuse of the drug or other substances may lead to severe psychological or physical dependence

astroglide

03-29-2005, 03:17 PM

i didn't go to college, but i lived with and hung out with many people who used or knew people who used adderall. particularly at washington university, which is basically the midwest equivalent of harvard. very prestigious, very expensive, tons of hardcore academics. adderall is huge there.

dankhank

03-29-2005, 03:17 PM

i've had (have) all sorts of substance abuse problems so this is something i think about a lot. as a general rule drinking alcohol knocks some brain cells out of commission and people play worse poker when drunk. the more often you drink the better you play when you're drunk, but you'll never play as good as when you're sober. as a general rule smoking pot makes people more "consequence indifferent" and thus most people play looser and worse when they're high.

for me the game seems more fun when i'm high, so i like to get involved in pots and derive more entertainment. i focus more, but that focus usually pigeonholes into just thinking about my own hand and i end up calling down more, cold calling preflop more, etc. my hand just has to be good here is something i say to myself a lot.

people respond differently to being high. i have poker pro friends who are almost always high when they play poker, but these friends are high almost all the time in general so i can't really say they play _better_ when high. it's just that being sober puts them on life tilt, so they probably don't play poker well either in that state of mind. i honestly don't see how a person can play better when they're high but i'm not other people. nothing makes me more confident these days than being clear headed.

i would argue that being high, drunk, etc. is worse when playing limit than no limit poker. limit is about discipline and sticking to the succesful playing system that you have in place. mind altering substances weaken discipline. no limit allows for less discipline if the player is skilled, so sometimes being drunk/high can work out here.

being high or drunk is a nice state of mind to be in however, and it is fun to play poker in these states, so every player needs to evaluate the cost/benefit ratio when making decisions about what to consume and when.

mrkilla

03-29-2005, 03:19 PM

I'll have to concur with the Pot comments [imporves focus]. But you can't be totally ripped other wise it some what backfires. Also I find its better online as you can keep a "sustained" high while in B+M when you crash you want to take a nap at the table or start swtiching to a stimulant [coffee,redbull etc].
As for coke, no experince but the guy's I've seen glazed over at the table always seem to be the top donators

partygirluk

03-29-2005, 03:19 PM

I can't talk about poker but I am close with many of the top bridge players in the world. Many of them smoke pot. One of them is always stoned whenever he plays. And you can tell just from speaking to him that he is quite stoned. Another top player was on cocaine through the '80s but is now clean and still playing to a WC level.

bobbyi

03-29-2005, 03:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Downers like alcohol and prescription drugs are probably not that bad for young males with lots of testosterone. The one danger is that you will play too passively.

[/ QUOTE ]
My general experience with people who consume alcohol while playing is not that they play too passively.

krishanleong

03-29-2005, 03:33 PM

I'm going to go ahead and be a dork here and say I play some of my best poker after a run. Admittedly this is a remarkably small sample size but I think clearer, the beats don't get to me at all and I feel great afterwards.

Krishan

bobbyi

03-29-2005, 03:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
particularly at washington university, which is basically the midwest equivalent of harvard. very prestigious, very expensive, tons of hardcore academics. adderall is huge there.

[/ QUOTE ]
I went to harvard, which is the east coast equivalent of harvard, and it was around there too, although I wouldn't say it was "huge". I found it helpful for when I would need to do a lot of reading. My natural reading pace is fairly slowly. I can force myself to speed through something, but I don't enjoy it and can't do it for very long in a sitting without getting bored, so I have trouble reading a novel quickly. But after taking a little adderal, I was able to sit down and focus and quickly read through Jacques the Fatalist before I had a midterm and not only that, but I greatly enjoyed the book. Adderall also made me much much more talkative and social the few times I tried it.

Boris

03-29-2005, 03:49 PM

hahaha!

astroglide

03-29-2005, 04:00 PM

harvard grads playing $25 plo. for shame /images/graemlins/frown.gif

GreywolfNYC

03-29-2005, 04:24 PM

Peyote buds, but they're hard to come by these days. Hoka hey!

addickt

03-29-2005, 04:53 PM

I believe sedatives make me play better... particularly xanax.. Not sure about focus, but calms me down and keeps me from getting too excited or tilting.. I think caffeine etc.. would be detrimental to my game..

I know many people that use adderall or other uppers to play.. guess it depends on your baseline persona

addickt

03-29-2005, 04:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I used to drink a can of this now then and cuz it really got me Jonesing. I felt incredibly focused. Nowadays, a lot of the younger kids drink this stuff like friggin water.

Your friend is an idiot.. There is nothing hepatoxic in red bull.

I haven't drank it since this Dr. friend of mine told me how hard this stuff is on your liver. If he's right, there's gonna be a lot of 40 year olds with some real bad livers in the next 30 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

addickt

03-29-2005, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any sort of stimulant is very bad for your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd totally disagree with that. adderall, etc would probably help a ton.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adderral is meth, you think playing on meth would be good too?

Stimulants are horrendous for poker play.. Unless you love tilting

addickt

03-29-2005, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't talk about poker but I am close with many of the top bridge players in the world. Many of them smoke pot. One of them is always stoned whenever he plays. And you can tell just from speaking to him that he is quite stoned. Another top player was on cocaine through the '80s

but is now clean and still playing to a WC level.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the top 5 players in the world was one of the biggest coke heads around.. I would be broke quick if I was strill using coke.. Other than the fact that I used to blow a 1/4 oz a day, It would me kme far too irritable to take bad beats.. I would likely get a murder charge after a 3rd runner runner beat

partygirluk

03-29-2005, 05:23 PM

Well I found it really strange that they would take drugs when playing bridge at the top level. So I asked them about it. And the reasoning went something like this:

When you get to that level, 98% of your decisions are automatic, i.e. you don't need to be at your most alert to get them right. The other 2% require lateral thinking, or "thinking out of the box". If they took some weed it would help them think in ways that they would not have sober, and thus spot something brilliant.

tpir90036

03-29-2005, 06:30 PM

the internet is good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adderall

SA125

03-29-2005, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ive never smoked pot before

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, I was too young for Woodstock and I still feel old.

SA125

03-29-2005, 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My general experience with people who consume alcohol while playing is not that they play too passively.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's that they don't shut up.

jgorham

03-29-2005, 07:16 PM

I've only take adderal once, but when I did I played Halo for about 6 hours straight. And I was focused 100% the entire time. I am sure it would be helpful to the poker player looking to put in a long session of multitabling.

STLantny

03-29-2005, 08:28 PM

The Wash U ppl are nuts for adderal...haha Ive tried it, not for poker, but I kind of view it as a not worth getting addicted and paying for it, compared to the benefits it provides. But, I have a couple workout stimulants, that contain ephedrine/caffien/aspirin, liquid clenbutrx (not the illegal clenbuterol), being one. Its good.

jcmoussa

03-29-2005, 09:26 PM

hah! i just recently started smoking weed and playing poker, and let me tell you, it's the worst idea ever for me. i enter ultra weak/tight mode , and have no idea what is going on, because i normally 4 table 6 handed. When im drunk though, i become incredibly aggressive, to a point where people think im a retarded maniac. Also adderral....i only played once while under the influence of that, and i dont really remember the session too much, but when i woke up, i was sitting with $600 at a $50 max buyin NL table.

mosta

03-30-2005, 05:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
First you say it improves focus and motivation and then you say you don't recommend it. WTF? You're sending some mixed signals Mr. Glide.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Adderral is meth, you think playing on meth would be good too?

[/ QUOTE ]

many stimulants including methamphetamine are good for your concentration. a friend of mine did his best graduate work at cal tech as a meth user (4.0, star of the dept. still looks back on that year fondly). but he also saw enough danger in his friends to get out in less than a year. that's the rub. it is great for a while. it may even make you smarter. but then there is the inevitable decline into amphetamine psychosis. (though paul erdos, one of the great mathematicians of the 20th cent, spent his entire, very productive, life on some kind of stimulant pill--maybe there is a way...)

mosta

03-30-2005, 05:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Paul Erdös was a habitual amphetamine user the last 20 years of his life, and a heavy consumer of other more mainstream stimulants his entire life.
...

Erdös' friends worried about his drug use, and in 1979 Graham bet Erdös $500 that he couldn't stop taking amphetamines for a month. Erdös accepted, and went cold turkey for a month. Erdös' comment at the end of the month was "You've showed me I'm not an addict. But I didn't get any work done. I'd get up in the morning and stare at a blank piece of paper. I'd have no ideas, just like an ordinary person. You've set mathematics back a month." He then immediately started taking amphetamines again.

[/ QUOTE ]

source (http://www.untruth.org/~josh/papers/Paul%20Erd%F6s%20bio-rev2.pdf)

jkamowitz

03-30-2005, 08:32 AM

Yes, as has been mentioned I frequently take adderoll before playing. It helps that a)I am prescribed and b)that it is a small dose. It helps me to concentrate but mainly the tilt factor is none existant. As is the feeling that I am on a rush. Everything is completely mediocre.

philnewall

03-30-2005, 08:33 AM

A drug that might be good to play under, although i've never tried this is ecstacy. Boundless energy, complete lucidity, loadsa happiness, and if your monitors the brightest thing in the room you could end up staring at it for 7 hours straight. It's also very cheap, so you'd hardly blow your whole hourly rate on it. All you need is enough banging tunes on your comp. and hope the neighbours don't mind, because you will want the music very very loud.