Line check please.....what's your flop bet?

[woodguy]

This was a hand from a Stars Double Shoot Out for a WSOP seat. This is the first table.

I had a severe case of FPS in the BB and blew my stack from 1800 to 500, then managed to get up to what it was at for this hand by going over top of a LAG PF raise with ATo, he called with 77 and I hit an A.

Villian hadn't really done anything to get my attention. I know that he qualified from the $5 rebuy (like me /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

My question is...how much do you bet on the flop?

If you like checking behind, please discuss.
If you want to talk about the PF play that is ok too.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t1775)
MP1 (t3160)
Hero (t1470)
CO (t1105)
Button (t1075)
SB (t1625)
BB (t1105)
UTG (t2185)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t100, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG calls t300.

Flop: (t950) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ???


<font color="black"> Thanks,
Woodguy
</font>

[MLG]

Limp preflop. Don't bet almost 1/3 of your stack here with AJ man, for precisely this reason. I guess I'm pushing here, but there is no good option because of the preflop raise.

[fnord_too]

So you have about 1k left? I think this is a push or check spot. I can't think of a reasonable bet that would make utg fold but would also let you fold to a reraise. I probably check here and take the free card. This is a tough spot. With a deeper stack I bet 500-600. Pre flop looks right.

[woodguy]

Pwning limpers was the order of the day on this table, and generally worked.

I guess I could limp here, but it doesn't feel right.

I see your point in that my stack commits me with the raise.

My plan was pushing damn near any flop if only the limper called, and probably check through a missed flop if someone in position called.

If you limped here and were raised behind by the button, on a pwning table, what's your play?

Regards,
Woodguy

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
If you limped here and were raised behind by the button, on a pwning table, what's your play?


[/ QUOTE ]

SnG.

maybe push if I think I have FE

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
With a deeper stack I bet 500-600]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, me too.

I see what MLG is saying in that my PF raise essentially commits me to the hand.

I think this is a pretty good flop for me, and I really don't want to let a lone /images/graemlins/diamond.gif see another, or give a whiff of weakness as I can't call a turn bet unless its an A.

What motivates you to check behind on this flop and what's your plan if UTG bets or checks?

Regards,
Woodguy

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
SnG.

maybe push if I think I have FE

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you push on this flop?

Regards,
Woodguy

[MLG]

yes.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that flop for my hand too.

I like it even more over a limper than a PF raiser.

Regards,
Woodguy

[MLG]

just hope he doesnt sack up and call you with like 99.

[ononimo]

[ QUOTE ]
I like that flop for my hand too.

I like it even more over a limper than a PF raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

understood but what range of hands are you putting an UTG limper on, particularly at a table where limpers have been raised as a matter of course?

[MLG]

The other problem is you cant even come close to pushing him off a flush draw, especially if its the nut flush and he thinks his A might be good.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
understood but what range of hands are you putting an UTG limper on, particularly at a table where limpers have been raised as a matter of course?

[/ QUOTE ]

small to medium pair, or a weak suited A is what I usually see from a limper in EP.

Never seen this guy before and he did qualify from a $5 rebuy so you gotta let the range be large, hence the raise.

When he called my PF raise I was pretty comfortable with a small/medium pair.

Regards,
Woodguy

[Pepsquad]

Pretty read dependant on UTG but I agree with MLG, this raise is outta line. Barring a read on UTG that he's weak-tight and would lay down any and all underpairs to an overcard, there's no reason for that raise pre-flop.
FWIW, villain has played precisely how I would play AA, KK or AK from UTG at a table that is "pwning limpers". To me, that's just a fancy way of describing a table that's too LAG. If that's the case, I'm not sure why you're trying to LAG it up with the best of them here?

[MLG]

That's not why I said the raise was out of line. It has nothing to do with the kinds of hands the limper may have.

[ononimo]

ok, but given the texture of that table, what hands would you limp with?

playing a weak Ace or small/medium pair out of position to a near-certain late position raise seems pretty risky.

i also would have assumed that the limper had *hoping* to get raised.

maybe i put too much credence in the saying "beware of the (UTG) limper" ...

[MLG]

Its all about reading the texture of the table. Sometimes people are limping there with a very wide range, sometimes they aren't, that's not the problem here. The problem is that even given that you read the limper for not being strong this raise is bad given the stack sizes.

[PAUL-IN]

slam the betz to tha SICKZORZ leVel. No way he can call your Gnarcore bizznet.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
To me, that's just a fancy way of describing a table that's too LAG. If that's the case, I'm not sure why you're trying to LAG it up with the best of them here?


[/ QUOTE ]

No.

The table was agressive, not Laggy. The only LAG was the guy to my right who doubled me up.

I had played 16% of my hands by this point and PF raises were getting a lot of respect.

Over 1/2 of the limps were raised, then those raises were respected.

Regards,
Woodguy

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ononimo]

yes, i completely agree that raise (1/3 his stack) was out of line (either limp or push with AJ in that situation) ... i was just asking about what you'd put the villain on after he called the pre-flop raise.

i guess you're saying it doesn't matter. no worries /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[woodguy]

Gotta go, so thanks for the responses.

I'm still waiting for fnord's line on checking behind on the flop....hope to see it as it has merit, David Ross (who was at the table, and eventually won moving on the table 2) agrees that checking behind that flop wouldn't be bad.

I don't hate my play, but I'm re-thinking my PF raise a little due to my stack size.

MLG has it when he said "this raise is bad given the stack sizes"


Anyhow, here's the rest....

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t1775)
MP1 (t3160)
Hero (t1470)
CO (t1105)
Button (t1075)
SB (t1625)
BB (t1105)
UTG (t2185)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t100, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG calls t300.

Flop: (t950) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1070 (All-In)</font>, UTG calls t1070.

Turn: (t3090) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t3090) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t3090

Results: UTG has 9d Qd (flush, queen high).
Hero has Jc Ac (high card, ace).
Outcome: UTG wins t3090.

Don't really like the PF call, but there was no way they are laying down to any push.....

If I check behind and chicken out on the diamond, I still have 1K which isn't the end of the world.

I still like my line, but I don't love it, and I'm sure there are alternatives.

And its not a bad beat, as I was behind when the $$$ went in......55/45 on pokerstove.

I still think this is a good flop for my hand.

Regards,
Woodguy

[MLG]

right, in this case it doesnt matter, but fwiw i agree with woodguys read.

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
That's not why I said the raise was out of line. It has nothing to do with the kinds of hands the limper may have.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that's what I said. All I said was that I agree with you that the raise was out of line...I didn't say anything about your reasoning.

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty read dependant on UTG but I agree with MLG, this raise is outta line

[/ QUOTE ]

i said its not read dependent, so you don't agree with me. we might both think the raise is out of line, but for different reasons. i dont think thats agreement. but im just being nitpicky.

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty read dependant on UTG but I agree with MLG, this raise is outta line

[/ QUOTE ]

i said its not read dependent, so you don't agree with me. we might both think the raise is out of line, but for different reasons. i dont think thats agreement. but im just being nitpicky.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Okay, I'm amending my statement. "MLG couldn't be more wrong, we both think your raise is outta line." /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MLG]

much better /images/graemlins/grin.gif.