I get schooled.....but i don't think I played too badly

[me454555]

Opponent is a tough 2+2er. He knows me and I know him. We have played together quite often and he knows my game pretty well. He is capable of making folds against me if he thinks he's beat. He also knows that I like to steal off him b/c he is tight.

1) What do you think of my play?
2) What do hand do you put him on? How many outs do you think I have once I'm 3 bet on the turn?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB <font color="#A500AF">(2+2er)/ 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">2+2er bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">2+2er bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">2+2er 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">2+2er bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

I'll post my opponents hand later so you can comment on his play. I thought it was very interesting from both sides of this hand.

[BWebb]

I'd probably fold to the turn 3-bet. However, I haven't been playing any lately and I can't seem to get out of the OOT forum.

[wrto4556]

Hero has odds to see the river.

If you think he'll fold enough that's OK. The pot's pretty small, he may give it up.

Maybe I don't have the balls, but I wouldn't have tried it.

[CallMeIshmael]

Have you thought about capping preflop?

Against a thinking player, I might. You have position, and he certainly has a very large 3-betting range here.

You have to call the flop.

How often does the turn raise work? Does he fold JJ? KT? Another KQ? What do you think?

At the odds you're getting, I think you need to call the turn raise.

Outs: Well, 3 for the nuts. Like 0.9 for the Td. I'm not sure with the Ks and Qs, because you seem to think he would 3-bet lightly here. Maybe 0.5 in total for the Ks and Qs?

[Chris Dow]

I will occasionally take this exact same line vs a thinking opponent. Will a 4 bet preflop help you here? As far as the turn goes I'm close between calling and folding. Depends on if I think I can definitely get two out of him when the jack pops and whether or not making a pair helps me at all.

[mannika]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably fold to the turn 3-bet. However, I haven't been playing any lately and I can't seem to get out of the OOT forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn call is thin, but I think it is good enough to draw at your 4 remaining outs (jacks). You should have pot odds assuming you can get 2 bets from 2+2er on the river, and that the chances of him having Axd aren't huge.

[wrto4556]

I don't know if hero has the odds to smooth call the turn getting 5.5-1. You have 3 clean jacks, .5 for the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and 1 or 2 for the K's and Q's. I just don't like it. Raising gives the added benifit of taking the pot unimproved, but i'm not sure it will compinsate for the size of the pot.

[mr pink]

hence the schooling /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Chris Dow]

He's not playing to smooth call the turn when he calls the flop, doing so is weak calling station bad.

[me454555]

No we didnt have the same hand

[me454555]

Why are you so sure I only have 4 remaining outs? He's a tag and may not believe I have an ace

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you so sure I only have 4 remaining outs? He's a tag and may not believe I have an ace

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 4 GOOD outs. He may be 3-betting his JJ. But you can't count your kings and queens as full outs, imo. He might be doing it with QQ or KK...

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you thought about capping preflop?

Against a thinking player, I might. You have position, and he certainly has a very large 3-betting range here.


[/ QUOTE ]


a preflop cap should have no affect on his opponent's thinking. there's so much deception involved. you won't cap with AA or KK and he knwos that, and maybe not AK, and you will cap with your worse hands, so it really shouldn't have much of an effect

[me454555]

Thought about capping pf but I figured his range of hands he'd 3 bet me with was Ax, pocket pairs down to about 44 and real 3 betting hands. I didn't think a cap really helps me b/c I'm most likely slightly behind here pf.

maybe it might help me later in the hand if I can get him to make an incorrect call though.

My thinking on the turn raise. His pf 3 bet and flop bet are standard and he'd do that w/almost any hand I mentioned above. He knows I'm a solid player and won't call the flop w/nothing. A turn raise might convince him I had overcards and just hit my ace. Against his range of 3 betting hands he is very capable of making this fold.

[sthief09]

looks good to me. I would fold a K or Q river

[me454555]

Look at my position preflop, he knows I can be stealing and will lower his range of 3 betting hands accordingly.

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
looks good to me. I would fold a K or Q river

[/ QUOTE ]

You're avatar is horrible.

[me454555]

You'd fold if you paired on the river?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
You'd fold if you paired on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. he's telling you he can beat a good A. what good is a K or Q?

[pokerkai]

[ QUOTE ]
You'd fold if you paired on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

easy fold on the river with a K or Q

[sthief09]

playing against another good player isn't an excuse to spray chips. if he has anything worse than AQ, yet can beat KQ, then I think he played it like a complete donkey. if he can't beat KQ then I think he's a donkey. he shouldn't be expecting you to fold anything that you raised with on the turn

he also shouldn't be capable of making good folds against you. and I think he should've checked the flop and/or turn with most potential holdings.

[me454555]

I'll hold off on the results untill the discussion dies down a little but I think your on the right track.

[masonx]

most of the time its not worth tangling with them.. they had little to your overall value. but i do it all the time

[me454555]

I wasn't really trying to tangle with him, it just sorta happened /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Chris Dow]

I dunno what else you're looking for here, we pretty much agree that you can try this line occasionally. You dismissed 4 bet preflop pretty fast but I think you should consider it a bit more especially if you want to set up a play like this later in the hand. Going into the river looks like a call after he 3 bets. You want us to acknowledge possible pair outs. I tend to think they aren't worth much but if you can believe they even might be worth something it makes the turn call easier. River muck is clear... I guess I'm curious about the results but it doesn't change the way the hand played out, it looks fine.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno what else you're looking for here, we pretty much agree that you can try this line occasionally. You dismissed 4 bet preflop pretty fast but I think you should consider it a bit more especially if you want to set up a play like this later in the hand. Going into the river looks like a call after he 3 bets. You want us to acknowledge possible pair outs. I tend to think they aren't worth much but if you can believe they even might be worth something it makes the turn call easier. River muck is clear... I guess I'm curious about the results but it doesn't change the way the hand played out, it looks fine.

[/ QUOTE ]


4-betting is just an attempt at deception. you more or less should be capping everytime or never, or using some sort of game theory, like capping with 2 black or 2 red cards, or between midnight and noon, or something. I would tend to cap every time. if he's nto capping AA he shouldn't cap KQ. capping here shoudl mean very little to his opponent. it's not liek he's gonna think "he capped! he has AA!" he's going to think "a cap could mean anything"

[Chris Dow]

Fair point, if I think my opponent is good I'm not going to try to play a tricky postflop line with him very often so I would cap AA in that spot and just punish him for the max preflop.

[mannika]

Bah my bad in my earlier post, I was calculating based on him having to call 1 BB, not two.