FACT vs. FICTION

[skipperbob]

Having been completely converted to the hyper-tight/early - push-fold/late SnG formula (mostly by virtue of being an in-person witness to the NewYear'sEve Deathstar) I now find myself, almost always, short-stacked on or near the bubble. That position renders it inevitable that I must risk all on one hand.....Although my $$$$ outcomes are better, I miss the good 'ol days of gumble-gumble-gumble /images/graemlins/confused.gif
Any comments?

[lorinda]

http://www.decipher.com/youngjedi/cardlists/battleofnaboo/light/images/51jediforcepush.gif

Lori

[skipperbob]

Let me know if you need help with the [ QUOTE ]
function /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
Having been completely converted to the hyper-tight/early - push-fold/late SnG formula (mostly by virtue of being an in-person witness to the NewYear'sEve Deathstar) I now find myself, almost always, short-stacked on or near the bubble. That position renders it inevitable that I must risk all on one hand.....Although my $$$$ outcomes are better, I miss the good 'ol days of gumble-gumble-gumble /images/graemlins/confused.gif
Any comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Profitabilty is a bitch.

[skipperbob]

Hey Honey: It's 2:00 AM (GMT) there....try going to bed

[lorinda]

Nearly 4am now, we're on BST already /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Lori

[Benoit]

When you say push I take it as meaning going all-in before the flop? I hope that's not your only action. Why do that unless you are horible at post flop play?

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
When you say push I take it as meaning going all-in before the flop? I hope that's not your only action. Why do that unless you are horible at post flop play?

[/ QUOTE ]

.. . oh goodness /images/graemlins/shocked.gif. . .

. .. welcome to the forum

[eastbay]

Because it's very often the correct play, no matter how skilled you are postflop.

eastbay

[Benoit]

Maybe statistically if the blinds are huge. The benefit is small to the downside when only someone who beats you will call... Unless it's been observed that $5 SNG players routinely call all-in's with crap. Why not do a standard raise, not risk your entire stack, encourage someone to make a mistake and call, and decrease variance.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Having been completely converted to the hyper-tight/early - push-fold/late SnG formula (mostly by virtue of being an in-person witness to the NewYear'sEve Deathstar) I now find myself, almost always, short-stacked on or near the bubble. That position renders it inevitable that I must risk all on one hand.....Although my $$$$ outcomes are better, I miss the good 'ol days of gumble-gumble-gumble /images/graemlins/confused.gif
Any comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Profitabilty is a bitch.

[/ QUOTE ]

PROFIT B!TCH!

Yugoslav
PS Skipper - we all miss those days..../images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[johnny005]

because most of the time when you do a standard raise you are risking more than 40% of your stack...so you push.. by later stages blinds are just too high

[lorinda]

Unless it's been observed that $5 SNG players routinely call all-in's with crap.

This from a $33.....


***** Hand History for Game 1462821732 *****
15/30 TOURNEYTEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) (TOURNAMENT 8829150) - THU JAN 20 00:59:41 EST 2005
Table Table 11828 (Real Money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: shubie618 (785)
Seat 2: paulkaulbach (800)
Seat 3: EHMON (755)
Seat 4: dougdoug1 (845)
Seat 5: around_her (800)
Seat 6: caseboy (605)
Seat 7: lorinda (800)
Seat 8: dmb23 (995)
Seat 9: dgslk21 (800)
Seat 10: bdubs12 (815)
caseboy posts small blind (10)
lorinda posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lorinda [ As, Ac ]
dmb23 folds.
dgslk21 raises (50) to 50
bdubs12 folds.
shubie618 folds.
paulkaulbach folds.
EHMON calls (50)
dougdoug1 calls (50)
around_her folds.
caseboy folds.
lorinda raises (785) to 800
lorinda is all-In.
dgslk21 folds.
EHMON folds.
dougdoug1 calls (750)
Creating Main Pot with $1710 with lorinda
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Kh, 6s, 9s ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4d ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Qd ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1710 |
Board: [ Kh 6s 9s 4d Qd ]
shubie618 balance 785, didn't bet (folded)
paulkaulbach balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
EHMON balance 705, lost 50 (folded)
dougdoug1 balance 45, lost 800 [ Qc Ad ] [ a pair of queens -- Ad,Kh,Qc,Qd,9s ]
around_her balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
caseboy balance 595, lost 10 (folded)
lorinda balance 1710, bet 800, collected 1710, net +910 [ As Ac ] [ a pair of aces -- As,Ac,Kh,Qd,9s ]
dmb23 balance 995, didn't bet (folded)
dgslk21 balance 750, lost 50 (folded)
bdubs12 balance 815, didn't bet (folded)

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe statistically if the blinds are huge. The benefit is small to the downside when only someone who beats you will call... Unless it's been observed that $5 SNG players routinely call all-in's with crap. Why not do a standard raise, not risk your entire stack, encourage someone to make a mistake and call, and decrease variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because that's just wrong in every imaginable way - and yes, we are talking about endgame when blinds are big. Just stick around and read for awhile.

eastbay

[lorinda]

and this....

***** Hand History for Game 1414856136 *****
15/30 TOURNEYTEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) (TOURNAMENT 8551318) - SUN JAN 09 22:35:30 EST 2005
Table Table 12695 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Joey_A (800)
Seat 2: zupadobra (800)
Seat 3: gorjusram (800)
Seat 4: XxM1KESTAxX (800)
Seat 5: Ace_High_45 (800)
Seat 6: steveg69 (825)
Seat 7: lorinda (800)
Seat 8: KrazyChris50 (800)
Seat 9: pokerarsehol (790)
Seat 10: milesw (785)
milesw posts small blind (10)
Joey_A posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lorinda [ Ad, As ]
zupadobra calls (15)
gorjusram calls (15)
XxM1KESTAxX folds.
Ace_High_45 folds.
steveg69 folds.
lorinda raises (800) to 800
lorinda is all-In.
KrazyChris50 folds.
pokerarsehol calls (790)
pokerarsehol is all-In.
milesw folds.
Joey_A folds.
zupadobra folds.
gorjusram folds.
Creating Main Pot with $1635 with pokerarsehol
Creating Side Pot 1 with $10 with lorinda
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5s, Js, 9c ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Qs ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 4s ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1635 | Side Pot 1: 10
Board: [ 5s Js 9c Qs 4s ]
Joey_A balance 785, lost 15 (folded)
zupadobra balance 785, lost 15 (folded)
gorjusram balance 785, lost 15 (folded)
XxM1KESTAxX balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
Ace_High_45 balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
steveg69 balance 825, didn't bet (folded)
lorinda balance 1645, bet 800, collected 1645, net +845 [ Ad As ] [ a flush, ace high with ace kicker -- As,Qs,Js,5s,4s ]
KrazyChris50 balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
pokerarsehol balance 0, lost 790 [ Ts Tc ] [ a flush, queen high -- Qs,Js,Ts,5s,4s ]
milesw balance 775, lost 10 (folded)

[lorinda]

... one more for luck....

***** Hand History for Game 1368176397 *****
15/30 TOURNEYTEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) (TOURNAMENT 8272451) - THU DEC 30 17:12:45 EST 2004
Table Table 11646 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: toyotacamry (800)
Seat 2: ando1121 (800)
Seat 3: sweetwater01 (800)
Seat 4: FrenchSleper (700)
Seat 5: DBLSHOCK5 (800)
Seat 6: gregb04 (800)
Seat 7: lorinda (800)
Seat 8: Smurfs (930)
Seat 9: awaxer (785)
Seat 10: JOE35251 (785)
JOE35251 posts small blind (10)
toyotacamry posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lorinda [ Ac, Ad ]
ando1121 folds.
sweetwater01 folds.
FrenchSleper folds.
DBLSHOCK5 raises (125) to 125
gregb04 folds.
lorinda raises (800) to 800
lorinda is all-In.
Smurfs folds.
awaxer folds.
JOE35251 folds.
toyotacamry folds.
DBLSHOCK5 calls (675)
DBLSHOCK5 is all-In.
Creating Main Pot with $1625 with DBLSHOCK5,lorinda
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Qd, 8h, Kd ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6s ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Th ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1625
Board: [ Qd 8h Kd 6s Th ]
toyotacamry balance 785, lost 15 (folded)
ando1121 balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
sweetwater01 balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
FrenchSleper balance 700, didn't bet (folded)
DBLSHOCK5 balance 0, lost 800 [ Ah Qc ] [ a pair of queens -- Ah,Kd,Qc,Qd,Th ]
gregb04 balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
lorinda balance 1625, bet 800, collected 1625, net +825 [ Ac Ad ] [ a pair of aces -- Ac,Ad,Kd,Qd,Th ]
Smurfs balance 930, didn't bet (folded)
awaxer balance 785, didn't bet (folded)
JOE35251 balance 775, lost 10 (folded)

[Benoit]

Ok well this is the first time someone mentioned the blinds were huge. I assumed he meant during the entire tournament he keeps going-all in when there is nothing in the pot to win.

I'm just speaking from experience here, but when I play SNG's the tournament is over in about an hour, so 50/100 or 100/200 by the time we are heads up. That means I have at least 50xBB or 25xBB depending on the level, so in that case a 3xBB is not pot committing me.

[Benoit]

That's very cool, but do you risk all-in only with high pocket pairs early on? Sounds like others here would rather go all-in with other lower hands too, rather then take a flop.

[lastchance]

Early on, you are trying to get a loose call with moving all-in preflop. Later on, you just want to pick up the blinds.

There's a big difference. So no, you don't go all-in with horrible stuff preflop.

And Lorinda, TT and AQ are actual hands.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok well this is the first time someone mentioned the blinds were huge. I assumed he meant during the entire tournament he keeps going-all in when there is nothing in the pot to win.

I'm just speaking from experience here, but when I play SNG's the tournament is over in about an hour, so 50/100 or 100/200 by the time we are heads up. That means I have at least 50xBB or 25xBB depending on the level, so in that case a 3xBB is not pot committing me.

[/ QUOTE ]

What site is this at? Sometimes it's a nice change when we actually get HU with blinds that low and I could play some real poker. It's always a treat but I'm mostly programmed as a push/fold bot. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
rather then take a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the words of a forum newbie. Good luck lad. It's either a short road, or a long road for you. It's all up to you.

Scuba

[Benoit]

Pokerstars.com $5+.50 1 table sit & go tourneys

Maybe it's just me and my style, but I have never been in one of those for longer then 1hr 10min for 1st. Or maybe I'm just lucky that all the weak players joined my tournament... Probably both.

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
rather then take a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the words of a forum newbie. Good luck lad. It's either a short road, or a long road for you. It's all up to you.

Scuba

[/ QUOTE ]

Go ahead and rag on my post count I don't care, it's still not going to change what I'm saying. I agree when you say that going all-in with small stack to blind ratios is correct, but unless you have established your players as weak calling stations, they will learn what you are doing.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
they will learn what you are doing.


[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/cool.gif:)/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif:)/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif:)/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif:)/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree when you say that going all-in with small stack to blind ratios is correct, but unless you have established your players as weak calling stations, they will learn what you are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

And exploit it how? By waiting for a monster?

P.S.
Skipper is this your first strategy post, intentional or otherwise?

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
rather then take a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the words of a forum newbie. Good luck lad. It's either a short road, or a long road for you. It's all up to you.

Scuba

[/ QUOTE ]

Go ahead and rag on my post count I don't care, it's still not going to change what I'm saying. I agree when you say that going all-in with small stack to blind ratios is correct, but unless you have established your players as weak calling stations, they will learn what you are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter one whit if they do. Please go study the Sklansky-Karlson problem to see what you're missing.

eastbay

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree when you say that going all-in with small stack to blind ratios is correct, but unless you have established your players as weak calling stations, they will learn what you are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

And exploit it how? By waiting for a monster?

P.S.
Skipper is this your first strategy post, intentional or otherwise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe some are dumb, but the others will catch on, eventually you will get no action. Hey that's ok if you want that strategy, to each his own, but I'm repeating what I've found to work so far.

Eastbay, I will. Although I'm not familiar with which book this Sklansky-Karlson is in, so I'd appreciate it if you could point me towards where to look.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree when you say that going all-in with small stack to blind ratios is correct, but unless you have established your players as weak calling stations, they will learn what you are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

And exploit it how? By waiting for a monster?

P.S.
Skipper is this your first strategy post, intentional or otherwise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe some are dumb, but the others will catch on, eventually you will get no action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, Benoit. Think.

eastbay

[Benoit]

Ok please tell me what I'm missing, apparently this is new to me. Are we talking about the same thing?

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok please tell me what I'm missing, apparently this is new to me. Are we talking about the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, is there a point of the tournament when you welcome no action on your raises?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe some are dumb, but the others will catch on, eventually you will get no action. Hey that's ok if you want that strategy, to each his own, but I'm repeating what I've found to work so far.


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need to know anything about poker here.....this is simple game-theory....and why STTs are such a good game-theory model.

There are *non-exploitable* plays you can make......it doesn't matter what anyone else is going to do.

Now, this doesn't make the games beatable.....However, I'll let you figure out why this aspect of STT play (even more so than other formats of poker) can be used to show relatively easily why the games are so profitable.

Yugoslav

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok please tell me what I'm missing, apparently this is new to me. Are we talking about the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to find and study the Sklansky-Karlson problem to understand why all-in strategy is so important in SnGs.

eastbay

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok please tell me what I'm missing, apparently this is new to me. Are we talking about the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, is there a point of the tournament when you welcome no action on your raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be happy to have no action to my raises late in the tourney. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Easier to win when it's Level 7 and on if I never got called.

[Benoit]

Ok, where please, which book?

I guess I have yet to try this, but so far I'm doing great getting into the money, then heads up without this. Sure, if I get reraised preflop and I probably have the best hand, then I will get my money in by reraising.

[david050173]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok please tell me what I'm missing, apparently this is new to me. Are we talking about the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, is there a point of the tournament when you welcome no action on your raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be happy to have no action to my raises late in the tourney. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Easier to win when it's Level 7 and on if I never got called.

[/ QUOTE ]

The translation is on a tight table you can start pushing with crap (ax, kx) and the like and the odds of running into a calling hand (Aj+, JJ+) is low enough that most of the time you will steal enough blinds to be the big stack by the time you get called. Not to mention you are doing this so often, when you do it with KK it looks like a steal and you get tons of action. Heads up is an extreme where pushing with almost anything is a good play.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, where please, which book?

I guess I have yet to try this, but so far I'm doing great getting into the money, then heads up without this. Sure, if I get reraised preflop and I probably have the best hand, then I will get my money in by reraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was on the forum, it's not in any book (although Sklansky claims it will be in his next book on NL.)

You'll have to search for it.

eastbay

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok please tell me what I'm missing, apparently this is new to me. Are we talking about the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, is there a point of the tournament when you welcome no action on your raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be happy to have no action to my raises late in the tourney. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Easier to win when it's Level 7 and on if I never got called.

[/ QUOTE ]

The translation is on a tight table you can start pushing with crap (ax, kx) and the like and the odds of running into a calling hand (Aj+, JJ+) is low enough that most of the time you will steal enough blinds to be the big stack by the time you get called. Not to mention you are doing this so often, when you do it with KK it looks like a steal and you get tons of action. Heads up is an extreme where pushing with almost anything is a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I see what you're saying. Basically I'm doing the same thing except I raise 3-5xBB, I prefer outplaying on the flop if called. I know if someone else at the table did this, I would put him on a wide range of hands, and not respect an all-in as much... Of course it might be the one time he has a high pair, but such is poker. Saying that, I'd hate to take that strategy and find someone else catch on like I would, I'd be out sooner then normal, no?

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok please tell me what I'm missing, apparently this is new to me. Are we talking about the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, is there a point of the tournament when you welcome no action on your raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be happy to have no action to my raises late in the tourney. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Easier to win when it's Level 7 and on if I never got called.

[/ QUOTE ]

The translation is on a tight table you can start pushing with crap (ax, kx) and the like and the odds of running into a calling hand (Aj+, JJ+) is low enough that most of the time you will steal enough blinds to be the big stack by the time you get called. Not to mention you are doing this so often, when you do it with KK it looks like a steal and you get tons of action. Heads up is an extreme where pushing with almost anything is a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I see what you're saying. Basically I'm doing the same thing except I raise 3-5xBB, I prefer outplaying on the flop if called. I know if someone else at the table did this, I would put him on a wide range of hands, and not respect an all-in as much... Of course it might be the one time he has a high pair, but such is poker. Saying that, I'd hate to take that strategy and find someone else catch on like I would, I'd be out sooner then normal, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is more exploitable:

a) raising to 3xBB-5xBB with a 10xBB stack and trying to outplay an opponent
b) pushing pre-flop with the same stack

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok please tell me what I'm missing, apparently this is new to me. Are we talking about the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, is there a point of the tournament when you welcome no action on your raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be happy to have no action to my raises late in the tourney. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Easier to win when it's Level 7 and on if I never got called.

[/ QUOTE ]

The translation is on a tight table you can start pushing with crap (ax, kx) and the like and the odds of running into a calling hand (Aj+, JJ+) is low enough that most of the time you will steal enough blinds to be the big stack by the time you get called. Not to mention you are doing this so often, when you do it with KK it looks like a steal and you get tons of action. Heads up is an extreme where pushing with almost anything is a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I see what you're saying. Basically I'm doing the same thing except I raise 3-5xBB, I prefer outplaying on the flop if called.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if you get called and get the rest of villian's stack shoved in your face, then what? How do you outplay villian then? And if you get re-raised all-in preflop, how do you outplay him then?

A main reason all-in strategy is so powerful is that it's difficult (basically impossible when done right) to exploit. Leaving yourself open to re-raises and stop-n-gos is a good way to get mugged by good players.

eastbay

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok please tell me what I'm missing, apparently this is new to me. Are we talking about the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, is there a point of the tournament when you welcome no action on your raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be happy to have no action to my raises late in the tourney. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Easier to win when it's Level 7 and on if I never got called.

[/ QUOTE ]

The translation is on a tight table you can start pushing with crap (ax, kx) and the like and the odds of running into a calling hand (Aj+, JJ+) is low enough that most of the time you will steal enough blinds to be the big stack by the time you get called. Not to mention you are doing this so often, when you do it with KK it looks like a steal and you get tons of action. Heads up is an extreme where pushing with almost anything is a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I see what you're saying. Basically I'm doing the same thing except I raise 3-5xBB, I prefer outplaying on the flop if called.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if you get called and get the rest of villian's stack shoved in your face, then what? How do you outplay villian then? And if you get re-raised all-in preflop, how do you outplay him then?

A main reason all-in strategy is so powerful is that it's difficult (basically impossible when done right) to exploit. Leaving yourself open to re-raises and stop-n-gos is a good way to get mugged by good players.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

(I'm loving this quoting the quotes)...

Might I add it's fun calling mini-raises HU and pulling stop and go's.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok please tell me what I'm missing, apparently this is new to me. Are we talking about the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, is there a point of the tournament when you welcome no action on your raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be happy to have no action to my raises late in the tourney. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Easier to win when it's Level 7 and on if I never got called.

[/ QUOTE ]

The translation is on a tight table you can start pushing with crap (ax, kx) and the like and the odds of running into a calling hand (Aj+, JJ+) is low enough that most of the time you will steal enough blinds to be the big stack by the time you get called. Not to mention you are doing this so often, when you do it with KK it looks like a steal and you get tons of action. Heads up is an extreme where pushing with almost anything is a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I see what you're saying. Basically I'm doing the same thing except I raise 3-5xBB, I prefer outplaying on the flop if called.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if you get called and get the rest of villian's stack shoved in your face, then what? How do you outplay villian then? And if you get re-raised all-in preflop, how do you outplay him then?

A main reason all-in strategy is so powerful is that it's difficult (basically impossible when done right) to exploit. Leaving yourself open to re-raises and stop-n-gos is a good way to get mugged by good players.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's an example of why to push more:

***** Hand History for Game 1811572280 *****
300/600 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10815911) - Tue Mar 29 03:36:54 EST 2005
Table Table 11516 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 2: The__Usher (715)
Seat 9: ZuperFish (1590)
Seat 10: Smittdogg241 (7695)
Smittdogg241 posts small blind (150)
The__Usher posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to The__Usher [ 3c, Ad ]
ZuperFish folds.
Smittdogg241 calls (150)
The__Usher raises (415) to 715
The__Usher is all-In.
Smittdogg241 folds.
Creating Main Pot with $1015 with The__Usher
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1015
The__Usher balance 1015, bet 715, collected 1015, net +300
ZuperFish balance 1590, didn't bet (folded)
Smittdogg241 balance 7395, lost 300 (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 1811574098 *****
300/600 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10815911) - Tue Mar 29 03:37:34 EST 2005
Table Table 11516 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 2: The__Usher (1015)
Seat 9: ZuperFish (1590)
Seat 10: Smittdogg241 (7395)
The__Usher posts small blind (150)
ZuperFish posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to The__Usher [ 5c, Ad ]
Smittdogg241 folds.
The__Usher raises (865) to 1015
The__Usher is all-In.
ZuperFish folds.
Creating Main Pot with $1315 with The__Usher
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1315
The__Usher balance 1315, bet 1015, collected 1315, net +300
ZuperFish balance 1290, lost 300 (folded)
Smittdogg241 balance 7395, didn't bet (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 1811574706 *****
300/600 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10815911) - Tue Mar 29 03:37:48 EST 2005
Table Table 11516 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 2: The__Usher (1315)
Seat 9: ZuperFish (1290)
Seat 10: Smittdogg241 (7395)
ZuperFish posts small blind (150)
Smittdogg241 posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to The__Usher [ Jh, Jc ]
The__Usher raises (1315) to 1315
The__Usher is all-In.
ZuperFish calls (1140)
ZuperFish is all-In.
Smittdogg241 folds.
Creating Main Pot with $2880 with ZuperFish
Creating Side Pot 1 with $25 with The__Usher
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5h, Ts, 9d ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Tc ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 6c ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2880 | Side Pot 1: 25
Board: [ 5h Ts 9d Tc 6c ]
The__Usher balance 2905, bet 1315, collected 2905, net +1590 [ Jh Jc ] [ two pairs, jacks and tens -- Jh,Jc,Ts,Tc,9d ]
ZuperFish balance 0, lost 1290 [ Qs Ad ] [ a pair of tens -- Ad,Qs,Ts,Tc,9d ]
Smittdogg241 balance 7095, lost 300 (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 1811575549 *****
ZuperFish finished in third place and won $100.
300/600 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10815911) - Tue Mar 29 03:38:07 EST 2005
Table Table 11516 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: The__Usher (2905)
Seat 10: Smittdogg241 (7095)
Smittdogg241 posts small blind (150)
The__Usher posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to The__Usher [ 7h, 2c ]
Smittdogg241 raises (450) to 600
The__Usher folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 900
The__Usher balance 2605, lost 300 (folded)
Smittdogg241 balance 7395, bet 600, collected 900, net +300

***** Hand History for Game 1811576117 *****
300/600 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10815911) - Tue Mar 29 03:38:20 EST 2005
Table Table 11516 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: The__Usher (2605)
Seat 10: Smittdogg241 (7395)
The__Usher posts small blind (150)
Smittdogg241 posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to The__Usher [ 7h, Td ]
The__Usher calls (150)
Smittdogg241 raises (700) to 1000
The__Usher folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1300
The__Usher balance 2305, lost 300 (folded)
Smittdogg241 balance 7695, bet 1000, collected 1300, net +300 [ Kh 9h ] [ high card king -- Kh,9h ]

***** Hand History for Game 1811576929 *****
300/600 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10815911) - Tue Mar 29 03:38:39 EST 2005
Table Table 11516 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: The__Usher (2305)
Seat 10: Smittdogg241 (7695)
Smittdogg241 posts small blind (150)
The__Usher posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to The__Usher [ 6c, 6s ]
Smittdogg241 raises (850) to 1000
The__Usher calls (700)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Tc, 9s, 7c ]
The__Usher bets (1305)
The__Usher is all-In.
Smittdogg241 calls (1305)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Jd ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Qs ]
Creating Main Pot with $4610 with The__Usher
** Summary **
Main Pot: 4610 |
Board: [ Tc 9s 7c Jd Qs ]
The__Usher balance 4610, bet 2305, collected 4610, net +2305 [ 6c 6s ] [ a pair of sixes -- Qs,Jd,Tc,6c,6s ]
Smittdogg241 balance 5390, lost 2305 [ Ad 6h ] [ high card ace -- Ad,Qs,Jd,Tc,9s ]

***** Hand History for Game 1811577849 *****
Smittdogg241: nh
400/800 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10815911) - Tue Mar 29 03:39:00 EST 2005
Table Table 11516 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: The__Usher (4610)
Seat 10: Smittdogg241 (5390)
The__Usher posts small blind (200)
Smittdogg241 posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to The__Usher [ 6d, 9s ]
The__Usher folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 600
The__Usher balance 4410, lost 200 (folded)
Smittdogg241 balance 5590, bet 400, collected 600, net +200

***** Hand History for Game 1811578397 *****
400/800 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10815911) - Tue Mar 29 03:39:13 EST 2005
Table Table 11516 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: The__Usher (4410)
Seat 10: Smittdogg241 (5590)
Smittdogg241 posts small blind (200)
The__Usher posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to The__Usher [ 7s, 4c ]
Smittdogg241 folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 600
The__Usher balance 4610, bet 400, collected 600, net +200
Smittdogg241 balance 5390, lost 200 (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 1811578745 *****
400/800 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10815911) - Tue Mar 29 03:39:21 EST 2005
Table Table 11516 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: The__Usher (4610)
Seat 10: Smittdogg241 (5390)
The__Usher posts small blind (200)
Smittdogg241 posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to The__Usher [ 6h, 5s ]
The__Usher folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 600
The__Usher balance 4410, lost 200 (folded)
Smittdogg241 balance 5590, bet 400, collected 600, net +200 [ 6s 4h ] [ high card six -- 6s,4h ]

***** Hand History for Game 1811579231 *****
400/800 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10815911) - Tue Mar 29 03:39:31 EST 2005
Table Table 11516 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: The__Usher (4410)
Seat 10: Smittdogg241 (5590)
Smittdogg241 posts small blind (200)
The__Usher posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to The__Usher [ Ah, 7s ]
Smittdogg241 calls (200)
The__Usher raises (4010) to 4410
The__Usher is all-In.
Smittdogg241 folds.
Creating Main Pot with $4810 with The__Usher
** Summary **
Main Pot: 4810
The__Usher balance 4810, bet 4410, collected 4810, net +400
Smittdogg241 balance 5190, lost 400 (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 1811579748 *****
400/800 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10815911) - Tue Mar 29 03:39:43 EST 2005
Table Table 11516 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: The__Usher (4810)
Seat 10: Smittdogg241 (5190)
The__Usher posts small blind (200)
Smittdogg241 posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to The__Usher [ 7d, 7h ]
The__Usher raises (4610) to 4810
The__Usher is all-In.
Smittdogg241 folds.
Creating Main Pot with $5210 with The__Usher
** Summary **
Main Pot: 5210
The__Usher balance 5210, bet 4810, collected 5210, net +400
Smittdogg241 balance 4790, lost 400 (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 1811580195 *****
400/800 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10815911) - Tue Mar 29 03:39:54 EST 2005
Table Table 11516 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 2: The__Usher (5210)
Seat 10: Smittdogg241 (4790)
Smittdogg241 posts small blind (200)
The__Usher posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to The__Usher [ Qh, Qs ]
Smittdogg241 raises (600) to 800
The__Usher raises (4810) to 5210
The__Usher is all-In.
Smittdogg241 calls (3990)
Smittdogg241 is all-In.
Creating Main Pot with $9580 with Smittdogg241
Creating Side Pot 1 with $420 with The__Usher
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 9s, 8s, As ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6s ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Jd ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 9580 | Side Pot 1: 420
Board: [ 9s 8s As 6s Jd ]
The__Usher balance 10000, bet 5210, collected 10000, net +4790 [ Qh Qs ] [ a flush, ace high with queen kicker -- As,Qs,9s,8s,6s ]
Smittdogg241 balance 0, lost 4790 [ 2c 2s ] [ a flush, ace high -- As,9s,8s,6s,2s ]






I realized the deck ran me over at the end but he was an idiot who lost it by not pushing more and trying to "outplay" me after the flop. Should I have raised 3xBB-5xBB instead of my all-ins?

[skipperbob]

I finally struck a vein /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[swarm]

1) You play the 5.50 SNG's, there is a world of difference at that level than say the 30's and 50's. You bring your 3-5BB raise into those levels you are going to get smoked.

2) You play on Pokerstars in which the blind structure is far different than what most people hear (Party/Empire) base their games off of.

However, twoard the end of every SNG when the blinds get to be near 10% of your stack the push fold method is most effective.

[stupidsucker]

The posters in this thread are part of the old pecking order.

Git wit teh nu krew and axe GauchoFish.

He has the answers.

-------------

In all seriousity since you are a relativly new poster.

To sum up what they are trying to tell you is one of the biggest and easiest aspects of the game to learn(not master).

Raising 3x the BB when the BB is 200 is insanity. It is always going to be a big chunk of your stack. Minraising without AA/KK is also absurd. Limping is for chumps. You DONT want a call, you want to push with dar LESS then monsters. Its called blind stealing. When people "figure it out" they normally start calling you own with crap opposed to "not giving action"

The steal is IN... Trust me.

[ForumBot]

fold

[nWirb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok please tell me what I'm missing, apparently this is new to me. Are we talking about the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, is there a point of the tournament when you welcome no action on your raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be happy to have no action to my raises late in the tourney. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Easier to win when it's Level 7 and on if I never got called.

[/ QUOTE ]

The translation is on a tight table you can start pushing with crap (ax, kx) and the like and the odds of running into a calling hand (Aj+, JJ+) is low enough that most of the time you will steal enough blinds to be the big stack by the time you get called. Not to mention you are doing this so often, when you do it with KK it looks like a steal and you get tons of action. Heads up is an extreme where pushing with almost anything is a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I see what you're saying. Basically I'm doing the same thing except I raise 3-5xBB, I prefer outplaying on the flop if called.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if you get called and get the rest of villian's stack shoved in your face, then what? How do you outplay villian then? And if you get re-raised all-in preflop, how do you outplay him then?

A main reason all-in strategy is so powerful is that it's difficult (basically impossible when done right) to exploit. Leaving yourself open to re-raises and stop-n-gos is a good way to get mugged by good players.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

(I'm loving this quoting the quotes)...

Might I add it's fun calling mini-raises HU and pulling stop and go's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't skipperbob supposed to have some kind of orgasmic reaction to all this quoting? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[skipperbob]

I did; then I created "ForumBot"

[KenProspero]

Can you please teach me how to get dealt AA?

I'm pretty sure it would improve my profitability if I was dealt this more /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[mcpherzen]

For the sake of Pedro, Skipper...

You should PM this dude named "Irieguy" on these forums. He's kind of a wanker, but he knows something about post-flop poker. Maybe he'll take you on as a student. Do you have any money?

-Z

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I did; then I created "ForumBot"


[/ QUOTE ]

spew spew spew spew

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok please tell me what I'm missing, apparently this is new to me. Are we talking about the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, is there a point of the tournament when you welcome no action on your raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be happy to have no action to my raises late in the tourney. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Easier to win when it's Level 7 and on if I never got called.

[/ QUOTE ]

The translation is on a tight table you can start pushing with crap (ax, kx) and the like and the odds of running into a calling hand (Aj+, JJ+) is low enough that most of the time you will steal enough blinds to be the big stack by the time you get called. Not to mention you are doing this so often, when you do it with KK it looks like a steal and you get tons of action. Heads up is an extreme where pushing with almost anything is a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I see what you're saying. Basically I'm doing the same thing except I raise 3-5xBB, I prefer outplaying on the flop if called.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if you get called and get the rest of villian's stack shoved in your face, then what? How do you outplay villian then? And if you get re-raised all-in preflop, how do you outplay him then?

A main reason all-in strategy is so powerful is that it's difficult (basically impossible when done right) to exploit. Leaving yourself open to re-raises and stop-n-gos is a good way to get mugged by good players.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol btw yes, I'm enjoying these long quotations too.

Yes of course with large blinds and 10BB left, there's not much leeway left and going all-in is worth it... Or I might actually try a stop and go myself if I had company for the flop. Kind of depends on the company right? If everyone is outplaying me on the flop, then sure I'll go all-in pre-flop, that eliminates their chance of out playing me... But that's only if that's the case.

Deep stacked; then if my standard to open is a random raise, and I have a reraise behind me, I can reraise X amount if I'm probably ahead or they might fold to one, or call because of pot odds and see a flop, and of course I could just fold... Yes I prefer the more conservative approach in that case, you can't fault me on that.

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
The posters in this thread are part of the old pecking order.

Git wit teh nu krew and axe GauchoFish.

He has the answers.

-------------

In all seriousity since you are a relativly new poster.

To sum up what they are trying to tell you is one of the biggest and easiest aspects of the game to learn(not master).

Raising 3x the BB when the BB is 200 is insanity. It is always going to be a big chunk of your stack. Minraising without AA/KK is also absurd. Limping is for chumps. You DONT want a call, you want to push with dar LESS then monsters. Its called blind stealing. When people "figure it out" they normally start calling you own with crap opposed to "not giving action"

The steal is IN... Trust me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Starting to put it together here in my head. Basically you are refering to when the blinds are so high that you must go all in or fold? Do you only practice this at one table tourneys, or even large tourneys? real or online?

You say when a person has 10xBB, what about if a person has 25-50xBB?

[Khern]

There seems to be a lot of miscommunication here. For most players here, Party is there bread and butter. And at Party, so much of your time is spent at or below 10x blind stack sizes, that it almost doesn't need to be said. I don't think anyone is advocating routine pushes with more than a 10x blind stack.

-John

[Khern]

Every once in a while, there's a day where the players just don't seem to be spewing as many chips, and I find myself constantly short-stacked on the bubble or 3-ways, almost never placing first on those days. I suspect I'm not stealing enough, and maybe, with 4 tables going, I'm not as alert as I should be to min-raisers and resteal opportunities.

I don't really know, but figure out what's going wrong in that situation is at the top of my priority list at the moment.

-John