not so standard TT hand

[mr pink]

average game, loose/passives abound

i open raise in utg+2 with TT, folded to random donk in mp2 who 3-bets, folded to the fishy sb who caps, i call, mp2 calls.

question 1 - this is a call or fold?

3 to the flop for 13 sbs

flop: 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

sb bets, i raise, mp2 folds, sb 3-bets, i call.

turn: 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif - 2 players 8.5 bbs

sb bets, i fold.

[ArturiusX]

Why did you call the 3-bet if you're going to fold to a blank?

[mr pink]

cause at that point i was gettin 19:1 to peel

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you call the 3-bet if you're going to fold to a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's 18-1. Implieds make up the rest.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
cause at that point i was gettin 19:1 to peel

[/ QUOTE ]

Touche.

What if he checked to you, easy bet?

[mr pink]

i wasn't counting on getting checked to. but if for some bizarre reason that happened, yeah i'd probably bet and fold to a check/raise

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
question 1 - this is a call or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

any chance you have the best hand?

Even if you can't, you were getting what? 11:2 on the call?

I'm thinking you can make up that with a set. Assuming you can get a raise in on a big street, and I think that's more than reasonable.

I like it all.

[Chris Dow]

Yeah, you answered whether you can call or fold preflop by the way you played postflop. If you're going to play it that way postflop it looks like a fold preflop. Unless your table is really going nuts you should have a much better plan for TT going into the flop. Most of the time in a 4 bet situation with just TT you can just fold the flop without a set since it really isn't that big and the 4 bet came from SB. If you decide to raise flop you're saying I don't think SB needs a big pair to take the line he's taken so far, which implys that you should call down after the turn rags.

[mr pink]

so what you're basically trying to say is "no set, no bet"

dude, errantnight was right about you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
If you decide to raise flop you're saying I don't think SB needs a big pair to take the line he's taken so far, which implys that you should call down after the turn rags.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. He is saying "SB COULD have AK, but he couldn't 3-bet me with it OOP. So, if he 3-bets me, I KNOW he has a big pair."

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you answered whether you can call or fold preflop by the way you played postflop. If you're going to play it that way postflop it looks like a fold preflop. Unless your table is really going nuts you should have a much better plan for TT going into the flop. Most of the time in a 4 bet situation with just TT you can just fold the flop without a set since it really isn't that big and the 4 bet came from SB. If you decide to raise flop you're saying I don't think SB needs a big pair to take the line he's taken so far, which implys that you should call down after the turn rags.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak/tight.

[Chris Dow]

You guys play silly sometimes and try to push imagined marginal edges. I'm saying a viable approach to this TT hand is exactly no set no bet. If you're going to raise that flop and not call down you're flushing money down the toilet because your flop raise makes no sense. Flop raise implies you think he doesn't have a big pair. Turn fold gives him credit for the big pair, why don't you try figuring this out without wasting 3 bets on the flop?

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
why don't you try figuring this out without wasting 3 bets on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without using the following expressions, explain how this is possible:

1) "I just ask him"/"Pretty please"
2) "Magic"
3) "I peer into the window of his soul"
4) "Pedantic"

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop raise implies you think he doesn't have a big pair. Turn fold gives him credit for the big pair, why don't you try figuring this out without wasting 3 bets on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

the flop raise has nothing to do with me thinking he has a big pair, the flop raise was to knock mp2 out of the pot and to see how the sb reacts. if he 3-bets me, i can give him credit for the bigger pair. if he just calls, i probably have the best hand.

[Chris Dow]

Carry on with focusing on how to play TT in the absolutely most marginal way possible vs on average terrible opponents who in this particular hand have 4 bet out of the blinds after an ep raise and a 3 bettor. Anyone calculated how much he "loses" by just folding the TT preflop yet? I say that if he's gonna play it like a donkey postflop - Which is exactly what he did imo - that his highest ev play is to fold preflop. Carry on with comments about how we are incredibly marginal and barely make it with implied odds on both the preflop call and the flop call of the 3 bet. Can't you guys find the millions of better spots to crush these weak opponents? I think this forum ignores those spots and loves to concentrate on "What do I do with my big hand in this horribly marginal spot?" far too often.

[PuertoKid]

preflop: ok
flop: ok
turn: horrid

You are getting 1:10 pot odds and you say sb is a fish. You most certainly are winning in this situation against a fish greater than 10% of the time, making a calldown here mandatory.

Edit: Just read Chris Dow's comments. I do agree that folding this preflop is probably a better long term EV move. But, depending on how fishy SB is, I think the call is probably ok.

[Chris Dow]

Finally, amen.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop: ok
flop: ok
turn: horrid

You are getting 1:10 pot odds and you say sb is a fish. You most certainly are winning in this situation against a fish greater than 10% of the time, making a calldown here mandatory.

[/ QUOTE ]

A) He is only getting 5.25-1 on the call down. (Do you see why?)

B) Most 'fish' don't cap preflop, then 3-bet the flop, then lead the turn here without a hand we are losing to.

[PuertoKid]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop: ok
flop: ok
turn: horrid

You are getting 1:10 pot odds and you say sb is a fish. You most certainly are winning in this situation against a fish greater than 10% of the time, making a calldown here mandatory.

[/ QUOTE ]

A) He is only getting 5.25-1 on the call down. (Do you see why?)

B) Most 'fish' don't cap preflop, then 3-bet the flop, then lead the turn here without a hand we are losing to.

[/ QUOTE ]

A) On the call to the river, yes (but the call on the turn is still getting great odds).

B) Depends on which flavor of fish you're talking about. But if SB is a loose passive fish, then a fold preflop was the right move. If he is LAG fish, then I think the call down is required.

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
A) On the call to the river, yes (but the call on the turn is still getting great odds).


[/ QUOTE ]

if i'm behind on the turn, there is no point in calling unless i'm determined to see a showdown unimproved. i wasn't so i folded.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
A) On the call to the river, yes (but the call on the turn is still getting great odds)

[/ QUOTE ]

Diagnosis: You don't understand effective odds.

Go to your local book store, and buy the book called "Theory of Poker" by David Sklansky. It is the best poker book ever written.

[PuertoKid]

fair enough. However, I think you made a mistake here. Your mistake was either

1) you misjudged SB and he isn't really a fish (i doubt it)
2) he is a LP fish in which case you should have folded preflop
3) he is a LAG fish in which case you should have called the turn

my .02

[sthief09]

the terms "donk" and "fishy" don't help to describe what kind of players these are. assuming donk = LAG and fishy = loose passive, I think it's good.


folding anywhere preflop is retarded and anyone who says to do that needs to reevaluate because that's the easiest call ever

[PuertoKid]

[ QUOTE ]

Diagnosis: You don't understand effective odds.

Go to your local book store, and buy the book called "Theory of Poker" by David Sklansky. It is the best poker book ever written.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I will do that.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
But if SB is a loose passive fish, then a fold preflop was the right move.

[/ QUOTE ]

no it's not

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
2) he is a LP fish in which case you should have folded preflop


[/ QUOTE ]

When reading TOP, make sure to check out the chapters on deception and implied odds.

Folding preflop (even against a player who is only capping with a big pair) is a mistake at 11.5:2 (with no further action) if pink can make up 8.5 sb post flop.

This is, in most cases, a safe assumption when betting is capped preflop.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
then a fold preflop was the right move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding preflop is a crime against humanity. He's getting effective odds of 11:2. He might already have the best hand. If he doesn't he's ~8:1 to flop a set and getting 11:2 with implied odds, he has to take a flop.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
at 11.5:2 (with no further action) if pink can make up 8.5 sb post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


at 5.75-1, he only needs to make up 1.75 sb per bet, so eh only needs to make up 3.5 sb postflop

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
at 5.75-1, he only needs to make up 1.75 sb per bet, so eh only needs to make up 3.5 sb postflop

[/ QUOTE ]

I was always quite certain that 11.5:2 DID NOT equal 5.75:1 when it comes to implied odds.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
at 5.75-1, he only needs to make up 1.75 sb per bet, so eh only needs to make up 3.5 sb postflop

[/ QUOTE ]

I was always quite certain that 11.5:2 DID NOT equal 5.75:1 when it comes to implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]


it does if you multiply by 2 afterwards ("1.75 sb per bet"). it's the same thing as saying he needs 15-2, so he's short 3.5 sb

[me454555]

Why not just call the flop and pop him on the turn? If you're behind you don't mind Mp3 coming along b/c you still have the same number of outs. If Mp3 raises and Sb 3 bets, you can toss it and save 1 bb. If your 3bet on the turn you can toss it and you might even get him to just call your turn bet and you check behind unimproved.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just call the flop and pop him on the turn? If you're behind you don't mind Mp3 coming along b/c you still have the same number of outs. If Mp3 raises and Sb 3 bets, you can toss it and save 1 bb. If your 3bet on the turn you can toss it and you might even get him to just call your turn bet and you check behind unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually I take it back. raising just tries to get donkey to fold a 3 outer, which he might not even fold for a raise. you're right. calling is best

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
at 5.75-1, he only needs to make up 1.75 sb per bet, so eh only needs to make up 3.5 sb postflop

[/ QUOTE ]

I was always quite certain that 11.5:2 DID NOT equal 5.75:1 when it comes to implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]


it does if you multiply by 2 afterwards ("1.75 sb per bet"). it's the same thing as saying he needs 15-2, so he's short 3.5 sb

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry... I see where are differences lie...

I always assume you need to make 10:1 on a set, and not 8.5:1, because sometimes you don't win when you flop a set

(note: this assumes you also NEVER win when you dont flop a set, which isnt true... but the original statement I made, was under the assumption that you knew a bigger pair was out, so it was accurate)

[Chris Dow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not just call the flop and pop him on the turn? If you're behind you don't mind Mp3 coming along b/c you still have the same number of outs. If Mp3 raises and Sb 3 bets, you can toss it and save 1 bb. If your 3bet on the turn you can toss it and you might even get him to just call your turn bet and you check behind unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually I take it back. raising just tries to get donkey to fold a 3 outer, which he might not even fold for a raise. you're right. calling is best

[/ QUOTE ]

*cries in the corner*

[PuertoKid]

[ QUOTE ]

Folding preflop (even against a player who is only capping with a big pair) is a mistake at 11.5:2 (with no further action) if pink can make up 8.5 sb post flop.

This is, in most cases, a safe assumption when betting is capped preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I guess I wasn't considering implied odds, like you say. I think you are right that what you will pick up for getting the winning hand will indeed make up for the 2sb call preflop. So you are right, the preflop call is not wrong.

Now, it seems interesting to me that if he chooses a different line and simply calls the flop/turn/river he puts in 1BB more than he does by the line he chose. If SB truly is passive and not capable of betting this without AA-JJ or better, then that is 1BB saved--a good thing. However, even if he only has a 15% chance of winning this, calling down from the flop is a better long-term move.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just call the flop and pop him on the turn? If you're behind you don't mind Mp3 coming along b/c you still have the same number of outs. If Mp3 raises and Sb 3 bets, you can toss it and save 1 bb. If your 3bet on the turn you can toss it and you might even get him to just call your turn bet and you check behind unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this a lot if we know we're behind on the flop.

I *think* pink thought he might have the best hand.

[sthief09]

yeah, I use 10-1 as a standard too. it assumesyou'll win 75% of the time with the set. here you'll win a little moer since the cards are all bunched together at the top of the deck, so straights are less likely. I was just seeing where you were coming from with 8.5

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, it seems interesting to me that if he chooses a different line and simply calls the flop/turn/river he puts in 1BB more than he does by the line he chose. If SB truly is passive and not capable of betting this without AA-JJ or better, then that is 1BB saved--a good thing. However, even if he only has a 15% chance of winning this, calling down from the flop is a better long-term move.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also doesnt protect your hand when it is best (you do have a player to act behind you, after all)

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, I use 10-1 as a standard too. it assumesyou'll win 75% of the time with the set. here you'll win a little moer since the cards are all bunched together at the top of the deck, so straights are less likely. I was just seeing where you were coming from with 8.5

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. 11.5:2 -> needs 20-11.5 = 8.5 postflop.