Best single game for determination of heads-up skill?

[The T.A.]

Opinions need here, folks.

What game do you guys think is best to determine heads-up skill? Ideally, it would be multiple games, but we're talking only one game here - one form of poker.

I've heard arguments for Stud H/L or Limit hold'em, myself. Your opinions?

[bholdr]

H.O.R.S.E?

[poker-penguin]

Indian poker

[The T.A.]

[ QUOTE ]
H.O.R.S.E?

[/ QUOTE ]
Please read my post.

Single game, not mixed games.

[PokerFink]

Deepstacked NLHE.

Or maybe NL 5-stud. I've read here and elsewhere that this game takes more skill and less luck than anything else.

[bearly]

surely, deep stack nl 5 card stud. in no other poker game can the knife be thrust so deeply..............h

[ZeeJustin]

Chess.

[PokerProdigy]

I say No-Limit texas hold'em, but NOT in a tournament structure. The better player has a huge edge in No-Limit hold'em over a weaker opponent.

[mosquito]

Blind man's bluff. No doubt at all.

[threeonefour]

this is kind of a weird question.

i think each form of poker only assesses how good you are at that form of poker. i know thats fairly intuitive but my point is that NL holdem heads up really only assesses how good you are at playing NL holdem heads up.

so ultimately H.O.R.S.E or some other battery of games would be best if you wanted to determine who is the best all round heads up player.

if you are asking "which game is the hardest to play heads up?" I would guess PL holdem or PL ohama split are hardest heads up mainstream poker variants. PL 2-7 triple draw or PL stud8 sounds difficult to me as well (I haven't played either of these two heads up, I don't think many people have)

[housenuts]

probably pineapple or 3-card poker

[adios]

I'd probably pick limit hold'em. Playing live blinds well in a heads up situation with not that much leverage requires a lot of poker skill IMO.

[RoundersRocks!]

I am not sure if this is what you mean, but if the question is really "In which game would a superior player hold the most significant edge" I really think 7 card stud hi/low is the game. I think a poor player has virtually no chance against an expert heads up. I would even say a very good player has a very small chance against against a pro.

NL hold'em heads up is definately not like that. Although very deep stack, non-tournament structure has alot of skill to it, bad players can get lucky cards, or big suck-outs, and the no-limit nature of the thing can make one lucky hand so much more significant/devistating. Did anyone see the celebrity who beat Johnny Chan heads up on TV the other night?

I think the problem with Stud hi/low is that I could see two truly great players stalemating that game for very long periods of time.

[Zetack]

NL Razz, no question.

[Hattifnatt]

PL Holdem

[IsaacW]

[ QUOTE ]
3-card poker

[/ QUOTE ]
Easily, just give the trophy to the guy who refuses to play due to the house edge.

[Phat Mack]

Tom Weideman's Game (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.gambling.poker/msg/6af4a11ee751a7c6)

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
Blind man's bluff. No doubt at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

wasn't moneymaker on the final table of this?

[BlueBear]

Heads-up NL 5 card stud, by a mile.

There is so much skill involved in it, a weaker player has almost no chance. Similar to chess.

[Kaz The Original]

[ QUOTE ]
Chess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go.

[callydrias]

[ QUOTE ]
Heads-up NL 5 card stud, by a mile.

There is so much skill involved in it, a weaker player has almost no chance. Similar to chess.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Ace_Ren]

In any NL game, a bad player could simply go all-in on the first betting round every single time. Games like Holdem, no matter how deep stacked, can be reduced to a simple game of all-ins where any idiot using this strategy could beat the best pros 25% of the time, it's not a winning strategy, but it gives anyone a shot against anyone.

For heads up, limit is a much more skillful style since the better player is going to have to prove it over a series of hands.

Of the games, I don't have enough experience playing the lesser known games to give good reasons as to why one is better than another.

[Buccaneer]

[ QUOTE ]
Opinions need here, folks.

What game do you guys think is best to determine heads-up skill? Ideally, it would be multiple games, but we're talking only one game here - one form of poker.

I've heard arguments for Stud H/L or Limit hold'em, myself. Your opinions?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should know not to post this crap if you have not searched the archives for hours. The regulars here get quite upset. There is a word for what they do, it is called forum tilt. They are like a tuned up pinball machine. Just breath the wrong way and they tilt.

Now to your question. HAVE YOU TRIED WAR? Remember you played it as a kid? You just put $100 on each card and bang you have your heads up game.

...That makes me feel bigger, posting like the other jerks here.
/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[BlueBear]

Perhaps it should be PL 5-card stud then, this negates the ability of the weaker player to go all-in straight away.

[PokerFink]

Thats not really needed. Many starting hand combinations yield much larger advantages in 5-stud than in holdem. Think about AA vs two random cards on a five card board instead of a seven card board. BIG difference.

[ACPlayer]

Skalansky or perhaps Malmuth once wrote an essay where he concludes that stud hi/lo with declare was the game with the biggest skill. The reason being that the skill in the declare part would give the better player a huge edge.

Personally, I would go with liar's poker. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sirtimo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heads-up NL 5 card stud, by a mile.

There is so much skill involved in it, a weaker player has almost no chance. Similar to chess.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

So then why is 5 card stud not played anywhere anymore?

I'm guessing that for the under 40 crowd, the most exposure they've had to 5 card stud is by watching "The Cincinnati Kid" on AMC.


regards,
Tim

(whose only exposure to 5 stud was by watching "The Cincinnati Kid" on AMC)

[Keres]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heads-up NL 5 card stud, by a mile.

There is so much skill involved in it, a weaker player has almost no chance. Similar to chess.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

So then why is 5 card stud not played anywhere anymore?



[/ QUOTE ]

beause a weaker player has almost no chance

[sirtimo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heads-up NL 5 card stud, by a mile.

There is so much skill involved in it, a weaker player has almost no chance. Similar to chess.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

So then why is 5 card stud not played anywhere anymore?



[/ QUOTE ]

beause a weaker player has almost no chance

[/ QUOTE ]

all the more reason for the top players to ask for/demand it.

[Derek in NYC]

the classic, of course: rock paper scissors

[nyholdem]

stickball...

[Vish]

[ QUOTE ]
the classic, of course: rock paper scissors

[/ QUOTE ]

I swear there is some skill to this. Sometimes you just "know" what your opponent will throw at you next.

[ThinkQuick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the classic, of course: rock paper scissors

[/ QUOTE ]

I swear there is some skill to this. Sometimes you just "know" what your opponent will throw at you next.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well i don't believe in *knowing* what's next but there is a LOT of Rock Paper Scissors / Roshambo strategy. I've never really read any of it but there are world champions that have a mastery of combinations and moves based on your tendencies that allow them to be the best


Anyways, wy hasn't anyone mentioned 7 stud? Would 5 stud be WAY more advantageous just for the reduced chance of the opponent catching undeserved outs?

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
undeserved outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would love to hear a definition for this term.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, why hasn't anyone mentioned 7 stud? Would 5 stud be WAY more advantageous just for the reduced chance of the opponent catching undeserved outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

5-stud gives a monster advantage to good players because you can see 4/5 of your opponents hand. Bad players will OFTEN call bets drawing dead or close to dead. No limit just makes this advantage bigger.

[YKing]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
the classic, of course: rock paper scissors

[/ QUOTE ]

I swear there is some skill to this. Sometimes you just "know" what your opponent will throw at you next.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well i don't believe in *knowing* what's next but there is a LOT of Rock Paper Scissors / Roshambo strategy. I've never really read any of it but there are world champions that have a mastery of combinations and moves based on your tendencies that allow them to be the best

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard that a guy got back to back victories the swedish national championship of rock/paper/scissors. Appearantly he won the final with five straight scissors. So there is at least some skill involved.

[ThinkQuick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
undeserved outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would love to hear a definition for this term.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha alright I don't mean it like I think you think. (<--?)
I can assure that I'm not a guy who whines about suckouts and bad beats, i merely was trying to ask about there being less suckouts ina 5 card game than a 7 card game.

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
I've heard that a guy got back to back victories the swedish national championship of rock/paper/scissors. Appearantly he won the final with five straight scissors. So there is at least some skill involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

How long are the matches? I am sure I can memorize a 500 long string of randomly generated characters (RPSSRPSR....)

If i just followed my randomly generated string then not even the best player in the world would have an edge on me.

So I think I can say that even though I have never played the game competively that there is no player in the world who would hold a long term advantage over me.

what a lame game.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
If i just followed my randomly generated string then not even the best player in the world would have an edge on me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you an online poker player? Because it sounds like you completely neglect the importance of physical tells.

[motorholdem]

Best single game for "heads-up" skill has got be lawn darts. Horseshoes with a bunch of drunks can be a little crazy too....And, keeping you head "down" in ice-hockey or football can both result in some nasty hits......

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you an online poker player? Because it sounds like you completely neglect the importance of physical tells.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am going to go out on a limb and say that there is no human being that can get a statistically significant read on me.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you an online poker player? Because it sounds like you completely neglect the importance of physical tells.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am going to go out on a limb and say that there is no human being that can get a statistically significant read on me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're bluffing. I call.

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you an online poker player? Because it sounds like you completely neglect the importance of physical tells.


[/ QUOTE ] i am going to go out on a limb and say that there is no human being that can get a statistically significant read on me.

[/ QUOTE ]You're bluffing. I call.

[/ QUOTE ] Ni han.

[ThinkQuick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've heard that a guy got back to back victories the swedish national championship of rock/paper/scissors. Appearantly he won the final with five straight scissors. So there is at least some skill involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

How long are the matches? I am sure I can memorize a 500 long string of randomly generated characters (RPSSRPSR....)

If i just followed my randomly generated string then not even the best player in the world would have an edge on me.

So I think I can say that even though I have never played the game competively that there is no player in the world who would hold a long term advantage over me.

what a lame game.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your strategy makes you 0.50 long term vs. the world champ. Good for you.
It also puts you 0.50 vs an 8year old that always throws rock. Not allowing an opponent to gain an edge over you is not the same as you gaining an edge over an opponent. Its a heavily psychological game and there is evidence that some players have advantages over others (not you though). These players are trying to outthink each other (unlike you), and some play better.

[highfidelity]

I don't see anyway that a less skilled player could beat a talented Stud 8/B player over time, and the limit structure would reduce quick all-in suckouts. Other than that I'd have to agree with whoever suggested PL 5 card stud.