200BB drop

[PokerBob]

Well, it's here. My first major downswing. Other than yelling "[censored]" a lot, I think I am playing OK. How's this one? Villain here is 12/0 through 55 hands.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 (poster) calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (11 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

[mr pink]

i'm usually leading on a flop this ragged.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm usually leading on a flop this ragged.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm usually leading on a flop this ragged.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is betting ace high into five people really the right play here?

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
meh

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i know.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, it's here. My first major downswing. Other than yelling "[censored]" a lot, I think I am playing OK. How's this one? Villain here is 12/0 through 55 hands.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 (poster) calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (11 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm diggin it all the way.

[jason_t]

I'd of played it the same.

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
Is betting ace high into five people really the right play here?

[/ QUOTE ]

nope. disregard above post.

[btspider]

nh

[billyjex]

There's no way I'm betting ace high with no draws into 4 players.

You played it good. You'll come out of the downswing soon enough.

[timprov]

You really need to lead this flop, or at the very least check-fold it. It's like you're jumping up and down yelling "I missed but I can't fold, take advantage of me!"

[Chairman Wood]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q, A. MP1 posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 (poster) calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (11 SB) J, 6, 2 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) T (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB




[/ QUOTE ]
Wise play.


[ QUOTE ]
Well, it's here. My first major downswing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well it's not my first but for some reason I always go through a pretty terrible swing when I first move up limits. I dropped about $1100 in two days last week at 3/6. Slowly been rebuilding since then. Keep your head up.
FWIW, even 33 couldn't win here, nothing you could do /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Chairman Wood]

[ QUOTE ]
You really need to lead this flop, or at the very least check-fold it. It's like you're jumping up and down yelling "I missed but I can't fold, take advantage of me!"

[/ QUOTE ]
You are going to lead this flop into 5 players?!?!? Why? Also why would you check-fold? Pot is too big to fold.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
You really need to lead this flop, or at the very least check-fold it. It's like you're jumping up and down yelling "I missed but I can't fold, take advantage of me!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible.

[Carmine]

I don't know if I like the turn call here. How good do you think your overcard outs are.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I like the turn call here. How good do you think your overcard outs are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wondering that too. Is an A a full out? Is a Q? Against someone that tight, seems like it could be a fold.

[Chairman Wood]

Don't forget he picked up 4 gutshot outs on the turn too.

Edit: didn't see the flush draw but between 3-4 effective outs.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I like the turn call here. How good do you think your overcard outs are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wondering that too. Is an A a full out? Is a Q? Against someone that tight, seems like it could be a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Count me in on bailing on the turn here.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I like the turn call here. How good do you think your overcard outs are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wondering that too. Is an A a full out? Is a Q? Against someone that tight, seems like it could be a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Count me in on bailing on the turn here.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually back in the calling camp. Forgot about the gutshot, so even discounting the A and Q outs as 2 each, 8 outs is enough to call here.

[Catt]

I play this the same way.

Villain posted - he only needed to contribute 1 bet to play against the raise with position on the raiser -- I think the A and Q outs are cleaner than if he had CC'd the PFR. With the gutshot, and allowing for the potential flush draw, I still think Hero has enough outs to call the turn (3 Ks and 3 for thw overs - though I agree it is close).

[jordanx]

Check raise flop on a free card play? The guy is tight, prolly passive.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I like the turn call here. How good do you think your overcard outs are.

[/ QUOTE ]



I was wondering that too. Is an A a full out? Is a Q? Against someone that tight, seems like it could be a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The overcards give Hero six outs, but we will discount them by half to compensate for being reverse dominated by QJ or AJ. Hero also has a gutshot to the nut straight giving him another four outs. Perhaps we should discount for the possibility of MP1 having picked up a flush draw. So let's say that hero has 6.5 outs so we need 6.07:1 to continue. The pot is laying 7.5:1 which is enough to go on.

[nolanfan34]

Yeah, I've since amended my thoughts. Also didn't notice that the villain posted. Guess I need to work on my reading comprehension skills.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

[me454555]

Normally, we discount overcards to 3 b/c we are worried about domination. Combined w/the Gutshot that gives us 7 outs in which to work with. The pot is offering 7.5:1 on the call which is fine if we have 7 outs.

Consider that 1) There is a 2 flush on the board that could discount 3 of our outs even more 2) Any A or Q could give your opponent a strait

Not saying a call on the turn is wrong, just something to consider when calculating our outs.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
2) Any A or Q could give your opponent a strait

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true, then we have the best hand at the moment.

Villian doesn't have to check behind (give up) on the river very often for this to add greatly to our bottom line.

[me454555]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is true, then we have the best hand at the moment.

Villian doesn't have to check behind (give up) on the river very often for this to add greatly to our bottom line.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

[Chairman Wood]

[ QUOTE ]
Check raise flop on a free card play? The guy is tight, prolly passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying if you check raise him on the flop and check to him on the turn that he might check it through thus buying you a free card? I have never really viewed this as buying a free card and have never c/r to try to get that result. Does it ever work? IMO, I think it is rather silly.

[PokerProdigy]

I like more aggression on the flop and then you have an easier decision on the turn, that way if the situation warrants it you can bet out on the turn as a semi-bluff, or if NOT you could also just check and call.

[Little Fishy]

At first i thought "fold", but then i saw that you also have the str8 draw, I say well played as long as you believe (as I do) that hitting an A or Q on the river wins it.

-little fishy

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm usually leading on a flop this ragged.

[/ QUOTE ]



me too. that's a really really raggy flop

[mr pink]

that's what i thought at first, but then again i've been betting in this spot a lot and maybe that's not such a great thing.

[PuertoKid]

Preflop: good
Flop: good (1:12 pot odds)
Turn: marginal (1:7 pot odds)

On the turn your pot odds are 1:7. You are 1:7.7 for hitting an A or Q, but those may not be clean outs so, depending on the range of hands you could put MP1 on, you need to discount accordingly. Unless I have evidence that villan bluffs at this with a worse hand than mine, I fold here, which I think is more profitable in the long run.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: good
Flop: good (1:12 pot odds)
Turn: marginal (1:7 pot odds)

On the turn your pot odds are 1:7. You are 1:7.7 for hitting an A or Q, but those may not be clean outs so, depending on the range of hands you could put MP1 on, you need to discount accordingly. Unless I have evidence that villan bluffs at this with a worse hand than mine, I fold here, which I think is more profitable in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero has a straight draw (K) as well.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: good
Flop: good (1:12 pot odds)
Turn: marginal (1:7 pot odds)

On the turn your pot odds are 1:7. You are 1:7.7 for hitting an A or Q, but those may not be clean outs so, depending on the range of hands you could put MP1 on, you need to discount accordingly. Unless I have evidence that villan bluffs at this with a worse hand than mine, I fold here, which I think is more profitable in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO! Reread the board on the turn.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
that's what i thought at first, but then again i've been betting in this spot a lot and maybe that's not such a great thing.

[/ QUOTE ]


on most flops, I wouldn't bet there, but J62r? there are so many hands with no overcards that have 6 outs against you but might fold because of the J

[PuertoKid]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: good
Flop: good (1:12 pot odds)
Turn: marginal (1:7 pot odds)

On the turn your pot odds are 1:7. You are 1:7.7 for hitting an A or Q, but those may not be clean outs so, depending on the range of hands you could put MP1 on, you need to discount accordingly. Unless I have evidence that villan bluffs at this with a worse hand than mine, I fold here, which I think is more profitable in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO! Reread the board on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops! You are right. He has 10 outs, putting his odds for hitting his hand at 1:4.6, so the turn call is required. My bad for not reading closer.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


NO! Reread the board on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops! You are right. He has 10 outs, putting his odds for hitting his hand at 1:4.6, so the turn call is required. My bad for not reading closer.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's better. Discount some of those outs by a little though.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
You really need to lead this flop, or at the very least check-fold it. It's like you're jumping up and down yelling "I missed but I can't fold, take advantage of me!"

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not folding AQ on a j62 flop with 11 bets in it for 1 bet. No way.

I'm not folding AQ on a JT62 turn with 7BB in it with at 4-10 outs.

I'm not calling the river with a high.

Nh

[jordanx]

Yeah, it's a play out of Lee Jones' WLLH.

It works because the player will fear a turn check raise as well.

This works on passive players. Just looking at the OP it seems he plays on Party Poker 3/6. I don't play online cash games so I'm not sure if it would be effective.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
You really need to lead this flop, or at the very least check-fold it. It's like you're jumping up and down yelling "I missed but I can't fold, take advantage of me!"

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that betting and getting raised sucks more.

[meanjean]

dude, you played it right...no matter how you count your outs you're not over 50% to win this pot, so no raise is in order on the turn. Lets be generous and say you have 2 outs to the ace, 2 to the queen and 4 to the king...that's 8. You have 5.5 to 1 pot odds. You called with odds and you didn't hit....sorry man...

I'm in a downswing too...mine will pass, your's will too and during your hot streak remember when you hit so times like this will seem less painful.

[ErrantNight]

i think you should lead this frop.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you should lead this frop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[Jules22]

you bet the flop to clean up overcard outs, pick up the pot if nobody paired on flop, reduce the field for a possible follow through bluff on a brick turn, to see if anyone raises, and because you may have the best hand, altho rarely. betting is definitely the best play here

[DeeJ]

I think this is fine. You could check-raise the flop to check out the Jack which might get you a free card but you don't know how many callers you will have or if it gets reraised what then /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Can't see too much wrong with this otherwise.

[ckessel]

I still think betting the flop has value. SSH covers this exact point in the Overcards section saying that you don't expect everyone to fold, you just want someone to fold and increase your chances (typically folks with bottom pair or small pockets).

By checking you don't really find out much about what the cold callers had. If you bet and they raise, then you can probably check the turn and fold to a bet. If they don't raise, you still bet the turn and fold to a raise, or check the river.

If people just call you out, you're still losing the same amount of money. If they raise you, you can pretty safely fold earlier and save money.

Passively calling seems to be the worst plan. You're not getting any information from the cold callers and you've got no chance to project strength and drive out someone with ace-rag or pockets that would fold if they didn't catch their card on the turn.

[ErrantNight]

bingo

[PotatoStew]

I'm in the "bet the flop" camp as well. You're only betting into 4 people, not 5 as some have said, and one of them has already checked to you, which mitigates some of your worry about him. Even if you are raised, that may serve to clean up some of your outs, depending on where the raise comes from. Especially if you're planning on calling a flop bet from someone else, I think this is one of those cases where it may be more productive to do the betting yourself.

[Little Fishy]

he has an inside str8 draw on the turn making it a clear call if he thinks a Q or A will hold up

[Pokey]

Call me a maniac, but I have to bet this flop.

Nobody has a straight draw (the preflop raise took care of that), nobody has a flush draw. JJ raises pre-flop, so you can ignore that as a possiblity. J6, J2, 62 shouldn't be IN this pot, given the pre-flop raise. If they're out there, you're just going to die. So be it; I don't mind that minor risk. I think nobody who isn't super-aggressive reraises you without dynamite; you can safely fold a reraise and consider it a relatively inexpensive escape.

I don't see an AK against me; they're reraising preflop, even in the hands of a total doorstop. The only person out in front of you right now is a J, and barring a fairly unlikely QJ or AJ holding, you've got six outs against that person.

(Note: QJ and AJ are unlikely for a few reasons. First, you have one Q and one A, so there are only six out there altogether. Second, there are only three more Js out there. The blind odds of someone with two honors holding AJ or QJ are therefore (3/17)*(3/16) = 3.3% or so; that works out to be about one time in 30 each, or once in 15 hands for the both of them. Of your four opponents, I can't credit all of them with having two honors each; I'm guessing that the odds that someone has you reverse counterfeited here are something less than 20%.)

Betting the flop here gives you lots of information at a low, low price. It might let you escape relatively unscathed if you're really clobbered. It also might (HIGHLY unlikely) win you the pot right here. Most likely, it thins the herd and keeps you in charge, boosting a pot where I'm thinking you've got an equity advantage.

Note that check-raising the flop does you no good and much harm in this situation since your raise comes from the right of the bettor. If MP1 calls, everybody who called the first bet will also call the raise, and you'll have an even harder time cleaning up any outs on the turn, and also sink another bet into a pot with no new information, positional benefit, or protection. If MP1 reraises, you're dead meat and an unnecessary 0.5 BB down.

[tizim]

I think the main reasons for betting the flop are that your hand might be best (unlikely), so you want to protect it and that you may pick up the pot on the flop or turn.

[ QUOTE ]
you just want someone to fold and increase your chances (typically folks with bottom pair or small pockets).

[/ QUOTE ]

In a pot this big and a flop this ragged, nobody is folding any pair for 1 bet or frequently even 2 bets.

[ QUOTE ]
By checking you don't really find out much about what the cold callers had.

[/ QUOTE ]
What happens when we bet and get 2-3 fishy callers? That would also give us little information. If we were to check here, the reason would be because we believe we are behind and hope to catch up on the turn. In that case, the information that a raise would give us would be irrelevant anyway. Actually, if we check and it's checked through, we would then still get some slightly useful information (our opponents are weak).
[ QUOTE ]
If people just call you out, you're still losing the same amount of money. If they raise you, you can pretty safely fold earlier and save money.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you bet and are raised, you probably have to see the turn, and it would cost you an extra SB to do so.
[ QUOTE ]
Passively calling seems to be the worst plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the correct play depends on the players you are up against. If you the cold-callers are weak-tight and you think you can push them off of medium pockets or hands like 67s, then firing on the flop and turn may be profitable. However, if they are loose and love to go to showdown, I think check/calling and seeing the turn cheaply in this big pot is the best plan.

[DiamondDave]

I try to avoid the raise-checkcall-checkcall-checkfold sequence.

[ckessel]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the main reasons for betting the flop are that your hand might be best (unlikely), so you want to protect it and that you may pick up the pot on the flop or turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's definitely not SSH's take at this point. Your overcards are strong, but likely beaten. You bet because "The pot is large, betting may improve your winning chances significantly, and even if you are behind...your overcard draw is relatively strong. Despite having four opponents, you should clearly bet."

[ QUOTE ]
In a pot this big and a flop this ragged, nobody is folding any pair for 1 bet or frequently even 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Low pockets might well fold. Weak (non face card) backdoor straights/flushes might well fold.

[ QUOTE ]
What happens when we bet and get 2-3 fishy callers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you're no worse off than calling a bet in that situation. By betting you have the potential for good things, but may end up with no useful results. By calling you guarantee no useful results.

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet and are raised, you probably have to see the turn, and it would cost you an extra SB to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you now know there's strength and can safely fold if someone bets the turn, saving you a full BB. Your extra 1 SB bet at the flop saves you 2 SB at the turn when behind and gets you an extra 1SB when ahead.

Look at the SSH Overcards section again. I've reread it probably 4 times in the last week because the advice can be counter-intuitive. It has you playing very strong on the flop with a relatively weak hand (in big pots) and then deciding based on your opponents responses (and the turn card of course) what you're going to do on the river.