Any hardcore republicans want to defend this apparent hypocrisy?...

[Zygote]

From the crossfire transcript (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/24/cf.01.html):

SHARPTON: You know, Governor, what is interesting to me is...

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: ... that I've heard a lot of right-wingers this week in the last several days say, if we err, let's err on the side of life. Well, why don't you take that position with the death penalty?

(APPLAUSE)

GILMORE: Because they're not the same. Because -- no.

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: But there can be error there.

GILMORE: No. No.

SHARPTON: And when there's a close call there, I don't hear the right wing saying, let's err on the side of life.

GILMORE: No. Don't talk about apples and oranges, completely different things.

SHARPTON: But if we are discussing fruit, we can talk about it.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

GILMORE: No. Listen, listen...

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: We're talking about errors here

GILMORE: No, no, let me say this. If you're talking about the criminal law, you're talking about people who have taken lives and then have to face the courts of justice.

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: No. But if there's a question that they haven't taken lives, why don't you err on the side of life? If you have someone on death row that we're not sure did the crime, why don't you err on the side of life?

(CROSSTALK)

GILMORE: Losing the issue of Finn and Schiavo, you now choose to change the subject.

[adios]

I don't support the death penalty. Does that exclude me from being a hard core Republican? I've been trying to tell you guys I'm right in the center of the political spectrum.

[wacki]

That is probably Sharptons best moment ever.

[Voltron87]

sharpton wins it with top set. nh.

[BCPVP]

If he's referring to the Schiavo case (which I'm sure he is)than is he therefore comparing Terri Schiavo's condition to committing a violent enough to warrant the death penalty?
What jury sentenced Terri to death?

Now of course there can be errors in death penalty cases. But that's why the convicts get decades to appeal their case. They have organizations that work to free innocent prisoners.

This (http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200503250823.asp) was posted in another thread, but I feel it's applicable to this thread as well. You can't compare Schiavo's condition to the death penalty.

On a final note, has Sharpton been on the record as vehemently opposing abortion? I would hope so if he's going to be talking about hypocrisy

[lastchance]

It may not be fully applicable, but to the very specific point that Al Sharpton was making, I think it is incredibly relevant.

There are other, differing, relevant points on the Schiavo case where Al Sharpton would be wrong to bring up the Death Penalty.

But against this particular point, Sharpton was correct to bring up the Death Penalty.

As for abortion, this, and the Death Penalty, well.... There are very complicated philosphical issues that I don't care for myself.

[Voltron87]

You're right in that Terri Schiavo is not on Death Row. But it is applicable to this "Err on the side of life" saying that many Republican politicians have been using. Most of them support the death penalty, and during controversial death penalty appeals they are not too vocal about "Erring on the side of life".

[Felix_Nietsche]

"No. But if there's a question that they haven't taken lives, why don't you err on the side of life? If you have someone on death row that we're not sure did the crime, why don't you err on the side of life?"
-Al Sharpton-
************************************************** *****
Al Sharpton's presumption is illogical.
Juries are instructed to find defendents NOT guilty if there is a 'reasonable doubt'. If an inmate is on "death row" they have been found GUILTY beyond a reasonable doubt. There is NO hypocrisy here. This is a matter of trying to equate innocent life with guilty life. BIG DIFFERENCE. And the appeal process for death row inmates is vitually AUTOMATIC which is another step to 'err on the side of life'.

If the premise of this post was Republican leaders are being hypocritical about state's rights, THEN I WOULD HAVE BEEN IN 100% AGREEMENT..... Nice try but there is no hypocrisy in wanting to spare INNOCENT life while allowing the taking of a GUILTY life...

I do think the Republican Congress is being 100% STUPID, 100% unconstitutional, and 100% hypocritical WITH REGARD TO STATE'S RIGHTS in this matter....

I have been unable to listen to talk radio for 2 weeks straight now for the wrong and ignorant support of Congress's illegal atempts to interfere in a state matter. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Voltron87]

So what you're saying is that everyone on death row is undeniably guilty?

[Felix_Nietsche]

"So what you're saying is that everyone on death row is undeniably guilty?"
****************************************
Nope, that is not what I'm saying.

Our system of justice is based on a presumption of inncocence and if there is a REASONABLE DOUBT, then the accused must be found NOT GUILTY. This type of judicial system is to err on the side of innocence.... And it does not have to be 100% perfect to work well.

If I had to pick the best judicial system in the world, I would choose the Scottish system of justice.

[Voltron87]

If our justice system has erred on the side of innoncence, and you don't believe everyone on death row is undeniably guilty, it must have failed.

[Felix_Nietsche]

Buddy, if you want to believe or judicial system is a failure...go head and believe that.
If definately has it's problems....

As for Sharpton's anti-death penalty rant, as a Republican I hope he keeps talking. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Voltron87]

I'm pretty happy with the US justice system on the whole. I'm also pro death penalty, at least in a perfect world. There is a point to my argument that some people on death row are still not undeniably guilty though.

You hear a bunch of Republican politicans spouting off in the Schiavo case about "Erring on the side of life". Besides the fact that the saying has nothing to do with what should happen to Terri, it is incredibly hypocritcal. George W said to "err on the side of life" in the Schiavo case. When he was Governor of Texas, he wasn't too fond of erring on the side of life during death penalty decisions. Do you see the problem? And yes, Terri isn't a convicted murder, but when there is doubt in a death penalty case these conservatives were never big on "erring on the side of life".

[Felix_Nietsche]

Again your trying to compare INNOCENT life vs GUILTY life. There is NOTHING hypocritical about that. If you call Republican leaders hypocrites with regard to state's rights, I'll be the FIRST to agree with you...

And I am for legalized Euthanasia...

[Voltron87]

George W says we should always err on the side of life. When he was confronted with prisoners on death row who might have been innocent, he never did this. That's hypocritical.

When we talk about people on death row we are talking about the doubt they might be innocent, not everyone on death row is undeniably guilty... many prisoners have been taken off death row by DNA evidence. So were are not necessarily talking about guilty lives.

[andyfox]

"I'm right in the center of the political spectrum."

I think you're center in the right of the political spectrum. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[andyfox]

"has Sharpton been on the record as vehemently opposing abortion? I would hope so if he's going to be talking about hypocrisy"

Irrelevant to the point Sharpton is trying to make. It's not he who has said let's err on the side of life.

[andyfox]

I like to listen to Talk Radio too, though, of course, my politics are different from most of the talkers. I feel badly for the poor woman, but enough already. Has the war in Iraq stopped, or the Social Security debate been resolved?

[MelchyBeau]

[ QUOTE ]

And I am for legalized Euthanasia...

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I just find something that Felix said that I can agree with? Is hell freezing over?

Melch

[BillUCF]

The problem with liberals is they are quick to defend the rights of murders and are quick to murder innocents (the unborn and invalids). This is fundamentally wrong to human nature.

Note: One of the first thing Hitler accomplished was murdering and experimenting on invalids like T.S. Didn't know Sharpton had a pair of jack boots.

[BillUCF]

Only reason Sharpton looked good here was Gilmore didn't do his homework before the interview.

[BillUCF]

How do the Scots handle the death penalty?

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Irrelevant to the point Sharpton is trying to make.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's relevant if Mr. Sharpton wants to take the position that we should err on the side of life. And I made the assumption that he was in favor of that and that he doesn't support the death penalty. If he doesn't want us to err on the side of life, why bring up the DP? I also was asking if Sharpton is publicly supportive of abortion because if he is for abortion but against the DP, I think that he is the one being hypocritical.

But like Felix said (which I tried to say earlier but not as well as Felix), he's trying to compare innocent life with guilty life. And not just guilty of stealing a candy bar or two...

[Felix_Nietsche]

I don't think the Scots have the death penalty but they do have three types of verdicts:
1. Guilty
2. Not Guilty(innocent??? Any UK guys want to help me out here?)
3. Not Proven

The advantage of this system is if an accused is released and they are found innocent they have a better chance of salvaging their reputation. In the American justice system if your acquited, there is always a cloud over your head.

[lastchance]

That's interesting. It's really nice touch. Under this, there's still no double jeopardy if it's "not proven," right?

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to listen to Talk Radio too, though, of course, my politics are different from most of the talkers. I feel badly for the poor woman, but enough already. Has the war in Iraq stopped, or the Social Security debate been resolved?

[/ QUOTE ]

As Thoreau put it (slightly off by memory): When will the world learn that a thousand men are of no importance compared to one man?

[MMMMMM]

Obviously the correct and moral thing to do is to err on the side of life in both realms. And yes I agree that many conservatives do not do this (and the same might be said for many liberals if you count very-late-term abortions)

By the way, I agree with what I vaguely recall David Sklansky writing many years ago, which was the suggestion that the standards of proof required be different for different types of cases. For instance the burden of proof in capital cases could be set to "beyond any doubt".

I suppose the standard for a jaywalking conviction could be set to "greater than 50% chance" (if it isn't already;-))

[nicky g]

Change "thousand" to "million" and the quote is right.

[MMMMMM]

Thank you , Nicky; I could not remember whether it was 1000 or 100000 or one million.

I chose the lower figure because of the lower population in his day;-) /images/graemlins/tongue.gif which was dumb because to him it would have seemed a higher population (historically speaking).

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with liberals is they are quick to defend the rights of murders and are quick to murder innocents (the unborn and invalids). This is fundamentally wrong to human nature.

Note: One of the first thing Hitler accomplished was murdering and experimenting on invalids like T.S. Didn't know Sharpton had a pair of jack boots.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is truly one of the dumbest and most ignorant posts I have ever read on 2 + 2

[adios]

Slightly to the right of Bill Clinton, slightly to the left of Dubya. Looks to be about the center of the U.S. political spectrum to me.

[Zygote]

You are absolutely right that state rights is where the real hypocrisy takes place. If this were a death-penalty case, and the legislature were to step in and say, "we must err on the side of life and, therefore cannot kill this man because he might be innocent". The typical liberals would be praising the legislature for its interference and the republicans/conservatives wouldn't shut up about state rights. So the hypocrisy is really on both sides.

Also, i still think sharpton had a point. He is talking about a general respect for our court system. Just like a man awaiting death penalty sentencing is guilty in the eyes of the courts, terry is PVS and wanted to die in the eyes of the courts. They (many republicans) are much more willing to criticize the courts and their abilities in the cases which suit their agenda.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
They (many republicans) are much more willing to criticize the courts and their abilities in the cases which suit their agenda.


[/ QUOTE ]

This applies across the political spectrum.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with liberals is they are quick to defend the rights of murders and are quick to murder innocents (the unborn and invalids). This is fundamentally wrong to human nature.

Note: One of the first thing Hitler accomplished was murdering and experimenting on invalids like T.S. Didn't know Sharpton had a pair of jack boots.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is truly one of the dumbest and most ignorant posts I have ever read on 2 + 2

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe this, then you obviously haven't read many partygirluk posts.

[Zygote]

yes, you are absolutely right. Although, i was just writing with respect to this particular issue.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
[I'm] slightly to the right of Bill Clinton, slightly to the left of Dubya.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you seriously trying to say that Bill Clinton's and George Bush's politics are so close as to be near identical?

This is what the geometrical description of your political ideology indicates.

[Dead]

they're not really that far apart.

Clinton is from the [censored] em(DLC) wing of the party.

[Cyrus]

And I know you know I also know that.

I'm just waiting for Adios to realize what he (unwittingly) admitted!

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just waiting for Adios to realize what he (unwittingly) admitted!

[/ QUOTE ]

I made that wittingly /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Show me a post of mine where I've bashed Clinton. I was critical of his responses to Bin Laden but also recognized that the problems with Congress may have had something to do with his conduct (wag the dog accusations). As far as being slightly to the left of Bush look what I've posted about abortion and the death penalty to name two things where I differ. The far left has hijacked the Demcoratic party and hopefully it's a temporary thing.

[tolbiny]

"It's relevant if Mr. Sharpton wants to take the position that we should err on the side of life"

Mr. Sharton was addressing questions about "the republicans" positions and what he feels are inconsistancies between them. He has asked for clairification (though in a politically charged atmosphere with obious undertones) on differences in the application of statements made. To argue that you don't see how he is being consistant himself is not addressing the question.

[Dead]

Pro-choice and anti-death penalty, huh? Never would have imagined it from you.

I happen to be pro-choice and pro-capital punishment(in principle).

I agree with Bush on very few things, but one of them that I strongly agree with him on is the death penalty. I have no sympathy for murderers.

[tolbiny]

"Obviously the correct and moral thing to do is to err on the side of life in both realms."

Why is this? Based upon your moral framework it might be- but you are making assumptions about other people's belief systems that you have no buiness makeing.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
Pro-choice and anti-death penalty

[/ QUOTE ]

Not exactly regarding abortion. I don't like the labels. I think there is a reasonable middle ground between what I consider a highly polarized debate between hardcore "pro choice" and "pro life" advocates. I've posted my thoughts on it before, if interested search the archives.

Just like to add that there are those on the forum who's views basically line up with Ward Churchill's on certain issues (like Cyrus) so of course I'm going to appear to be far to the right of those folks. So is Clinton.