Thanks Mason: Must Move Games

[Howard Burroughs]

And I was starting to think that I was the only person in the world who thought "Must Move" games are some sort of bad joke.

Thanks Mason for speaking out!



Best Wishes

Howard

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Howard:

They're worst than a bad joke. Perament must move games show total incompetence and a complete lack of understanding as how a cardroom really works on the part of management.

best wishes,
Mason

[NLSoldier]

From my experience, must moves tend to cater to the regulars who play in the same cardroom close to every day and put in very long hours( And are usually there when the game starts). So I understand that the cardroom wants to keep these regulars happy by keeping their game full. What I don't understand is when the floorman will break the must move game which has say 5 players left(because the remaining players are unwilling to play 4 handed), just to keep the main game totally full. One game with 8 players and one with 5 makes infinately more sense than one game with 9 and a board with 4.

[TomCollins]

Mason, I have found one spot that I do partially enjoy Must Moves. This is for capped NL games, such as the Mirage. Once I get to the main game, the stacks are usually much deeper. Second, the new players who come in have bigger stacks than the new players at the must move table. This allows for a lot more action and a bigger game. When I played, there was a huge wait for the must-move table, so there was no risk in moving tables. There was 1 must move and 2 main games.

Any thoughts on capped buy-in NL games with Must Moves?

[phish]

Disagree with you regarding must-move games. Must move games prevent the nitty players from jumping game to game trying to get in the good game. Plus, the only reason a must-move game would break and leave three names on the list is cause those same nitty players refuse to play short-handed. So they are the real problem, not the must-moves themselves.

[TomCollins]

You are allowed to move from main game to main game at a most move table.

[cab4656]

I've heard the term many times but never knew what it meant.

What is a must move game?

[BarronVangorToth]

Let's say a casino has 2 $5-$10 games going. One will be the "main" game and one will be the "must move." If someone leaves the main game - they take one person from the must move that has been there the longest (they usually keep a list) and move that person to the main game to keep it filled. The theory goes that this way, the main game is ALWAYS filled to capacity, and the must move game has however many people they have.

It causes delays and annoys people and oftentimes creates this situation:

Must Move: 5 people
Main Game: 10 people

Guy X leaves the Main Game. They grab 1 from the Must Move. Now it has 4 people ... and they don't want to play four-handed (they were already annoyed playing 5 handed).

If the house didn't bother doing this nonsense, the tables would've had invariably 7 and 7 as the Main probably took a few Must Movers over recent history.

Those two tables would've kept going and no one would've left, now you'll have four guys annoyed and sitting on a list waiting for the one table to lose customers.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[MicroBob]

Having cut my poker-teeth via the online game I was pretty confused the first time I went to the Gold Strike in Tunica and was told I was in a 'must-move' game. "what the hell does that mean," I thought to myself not wanting to show-off my total live-poker ignorance.

If they have must-moves at the Horseshoe or Grand I don't think I had sat in them.
But at the GS I found myself in a must-move 3/6 game which seemed pretty silly.

I have since kind of figured out the general point behind them but obviously Mason's ideas on them make far more sense than the logic the poker-rooms are using.

[Khern]

But I've never understood why regulars want to play with other regulars... I have played a couple of sessions at Mandalay where I just leave when my name is called to move. Needless to say, I don't visit the room much anymore.

-John

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
And I was starting to think that I was the only person in the world who thought "Must Move" games are some sort of bad joke. - Thanks Mason for speaking out! - Best Wishes - Howard

[/ QUOTE ]

Howard,

Let me make clear I'm speaking for myself (and not for the Bicycle Casino where I work) but IMO improper, excessive and inapropriately used must moves are one of the worse things a cardroom can do. I had a few comments in this (http://tinyurl.com/5ydv5) thread but I think I recall (but can't find) the thread Mason spoke out in (and in which I may have also contributed).

Is it possible you can post a link or help me find it? I'm sort of on vacation so it may take me a day or so to respond /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
From my experience, must moves tend to cater to the regulars who play in the same cardroom close to every day and put in very long hours( And are usually there when the game starts). So I understand that the cardroom wants to keep these regulars happy by keeping their game full.

[/ QUOTE ]

An existing game should have some protection and must moves have their place. That said never ending must moves ultimately hurt the first game(s) by filtering out action players (often when they are forced to move they move out the door) and limiting choices for the regulars. Unfortunately, cardroom management at the level that sets policy tends to over respond to daytime regulars who complain the most and loudest, since they know and tend to work the hours of these regulars and they hate to hear complaints. OTOH, they rarely hear the complaints of the evening player who quietly left the casino because he or she was forced to move excessively (if management is astute, they might note the lost games).

IMO, the worst form of must move is the "chained must move", where a player is forced to move to the newest game, to the next newest game, and so on until he finally reaches a main game that is all too often full of stuck, angry nits.

[ QUOTE ]
What I don't understand is when the floorman will break the must move game which has say 5 players left(because the remaining players are unwilling to play 4 handed), just to keep the main game totally full. One game with 8 players and one with 5 makes infinately more sense than one game with 9 and a board with 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

As an aside, if you have to use a must move this can be fixed with technique. IOW, make the policy such that you leave the games at 8 and 5. This technique generally works well if you are looking at the overall well being of the games, but once again tends to encourage a few more complaints from daytime regulars so it is rarely kept in place long.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Disagree with you regarding must-move games. Must move games prevent the nitty players from jumping game to game trying to get in the good game. Plus, the only reason a must-move game would break and leave three names on the list is cause those same nitty players refuse to play short-handed. So they are the real problem, not the must-moves themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't yet been able to find (or "re-find") Mason's original post or article so I may be going over some ground I've covered before.

At higher limits (high enough so the games revolve around one or two weak players), I do believe you need to use must moves a bit more (and even chained must moves) to avoid the unseemly situation where the weak player voluntarily requests a table change and ultimately just about every tough player tries to move with him. That said, this situation rarely exists in limits 40/80 and below.

Regards,

Rick

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Rick:

While your point has some merit, with so many new players at all limits today I don't think it deserves much consideration. A few years ago perhaps.

best wishes,
Mason

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
But I've never understood why regulars want to play with other regulars... I have played a couple of sessions at Mandalay where I just leave when my name is called to move. Needless to say, I don't visit the room much anymore. - John

[/ QUOTE ]

Every poker room manager needs to read your post and realize your actions are silently repeated thousands of times in many cardrooms and card clubs.

That said, regulars don't really want to play with other regulars, they just hate short games or taking any risk that their game will break first. If they could see the forest from the trees (along with management), they would realize the best way to keep their game from breaking and keep it good is keeping it friendly and moving fast.

In the absence of never ending and/or chained must moves, the games that break first are the bad, unfriendly games. Casinos and card clubs that use must moves the least tend to have better games, friendlier games and more games.

Regards,

Rick

[jdl22]

this thread? (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=cardroom&Number=494360&For um=f13&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25000&Main=494360 &Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=3&daterange=1&newe rval=5&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=# Post494360)

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
this thread? (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=cardroom&Number=494360&For um=f13&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25000&Main=494360 &Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=3&daterange=1&newe rval=5&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=# Post494360)

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the thread I was thinking of and it seemed like only yesterday (rather than over a year ago) I participated. Was this the thread Howard is referring to though? Mason? Howard?

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Rick: - While your point has some merit, with so many new players at all limits today I don't think it deserves much consideration. A few years ago perhaps. - best wishes, - Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

I know your loaded down with 7000 or so posts a day on this forum /images/graemlins/smile.gif; but like I've written elsewhere (especially in the year old thread someone finally found), I'm not a fan of must moves.

In a nutshell, I would use them only at very high limits and even there I'd try to limit their use to a bare minimum. At mid-limits I'd only use them for a brief period when a new game directly threatenes an established game (by starting short-handed and late in the evening when the overall customer base is declining). Even then I wouldn't use them if I have three or more games. During the times of day when games are building, must moves hurt overall cardroom growth by limiting customer choice and killing action.

OTOH, when a card room doesn't have must moves, democracy rules and bad games tend to break first. This just has to be better for everyone (except the stuck, non-thinking nit).

Regards,

Rick

[Howard Burroughs]

Hi Rick,

I was simply refering to, 2+2: The Magazine - April edition.



Thanks JD for the link though. I enjoyed reading what Rick & others had to say about it in yesteryear.



Thanks Rick for so many well thought out and informative posts.



Best Wishes

Howard

[phish]

IOW, make the policy such that you leave the games at 8 and 5.
Regards,

Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think this is the ideal solution. Keep must-move games until it gets down to 5, at which point the must-move status is eliminated.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Having cut my poker-teeth via the online game I was pretty confused the first time I went to the Gold Strike in Tunica and was told I was in a 'must-move' game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bob,

We online players have it pretty good. Can you imagine cherrypicking your six games with the tables all set for the fish fry, and all of a sudden you get a pop-up message from the site:

"You are required to move to table 'Rock Garden' for a must-move game."

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
We online players have it pretty good. Can you imagine cherrypicking your six games with the tables all set for the fish fry, and all of a sudden you get a pop-up message from the site:

"You are required to move to table 'Rock Garden' for a must-move game."

[/ QUOTE ]

Even weak loose players hate moving and often move out the door once they are moved more than once given they have multiple excuses and opportunities to go home. So when must moves are chained (must move to must move to must move and so on to the first started game) the main game usually has all gamble filtered out of it so in fact you end up with a 'Rock Garden' of the worse kind.

A B&M casino shouldn't even think of must moves once you get beyond three games and even then they need to reconsider the downside of using must moves as stated elsewhere in this thread and the other linked to threads.

Higher limits might be different, where one and sometimes two very big games often revolve around one or two players. I wonder if any online site uses must moves at high limits?

Regards,

Rick

[grimel]

[ QUOTE ]

Those two tables would've kept going and no one would've left, now you'll have four guys annoyed and sitting on a list waiting for the one table to lose customers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you get players like myself who say it ain't worth getting jerked around and either go home or goto another room. Possibly ending up playing online nearly exclusivly because they don't want to drive the X hours to B&M only to get jerked around.