Keeping track of pot size

[MoneyMoy]

I often find that by the time I reach a decision to call on the turn or river, I've lost track of the total size of the pot so I've hurt my ability to calculate my pot odds. It's not hard to mentally retrace the steps in the previous betting rounds if the action was minimal, but when there have been reraises and a fold or two, I find myself staring at the pot and just making a guess at how many chips I see on the table. Anybody have any tips for keeping track of pot size? Do pros really know the precise total after every round of betting?

[GrandmaStabone]

Try keeping track of it in terms of bets as opposed to dollar amounts. Just halve it on the turn to adjust for the doubled bet and it'll always be in odds form. If three players limp and you are the BB and check there are 4 bets in the pot. Say you flop a flush draw and the sb bets, there are now 5 bets in the pot giving you 5-1 on a 1.86-1 draw - you call, everyone else folds. Now on the turn the pot has 6 bets, cut in in half for the doubled bet and it has 3 bets. Etc.......

[MoneyMoy]

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Try keeping track of it in terms of bets as opposed to dollar amounts. Just halve it on the turn to adjust for the doubled bet and it'll always be in odds form. If three players limp and you are the BB and check there are 4 bets in the pot. Say you flop a flush draw and the sb bets, there are now 5 bets in the pot giving you 5-1 on a 1.86-1 draw - you call, everyone else folds. Now on the turn the pot has 6 bets, cut in in half for the doubled bet and it has 3 bets. Etc.......

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Thanks for the reply. Any tips for no-limit pots where the raises may be odd-sized?

[Onaflag]

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Try keeping track of it in terms of bets

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I agree. What I used to do before I could just keep track in my head was to put a chip in a seperate stack for every SB. Then on the turn, cut that stack in half for the larger bets. Now, all you have to do is glance at that stack and see the pot is 7BB or whatever.

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Say you flop a flush draw and the sb bets, there are now 5 bets in the pot giving you 5-1 on a 1.86-1 draw

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Be very very careful using odds calculated for the next 2 cards to come. It can get you in a lot of trouble. 1.86 for a flush draw sounds good at first, but it only applies if you are guaranteed to see the river card. The odds may change on the turn making your flop call incorrect, but this isn't an odds thread, so I'll leave it alone at that.

Onaflag..............

[GrandmaStabone]

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I agree. What I used to do before I could just keep track in my head was to put a chip in a seperate stack for every SB. Then on the turn, cut that stack in half for the larger bets. Now, all you have to do is glance at that stack and see the pot is 7BB or whatever.

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YOUR the one that taught me that! I read that here a while ago and forgot who posted it. It has been a fun and helpful tip so thank you!!



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Say you flop a flush draw and the sb bets, there are now 5 bets in the pot giving you 5-1 on a 1.86-1 draw

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Be very very careful using odds calculated for the next 2 cards to come. It can get you in a lot of trouble. 1.86 for a flush draw sounds good at first, but it only applies if you are guaranteed to see the river card. The odds may change on the turn making your flop call incorrect, but this isn't an odds thread, so I'll leave it alone at that.

Onaflag..............

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Very true, this has always been a gray area for me - you got a snazzy little trick for this situation?

[Onaflag]

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you got a snazzy little trick for this situation?

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I am nowhere near qualified to answer this. I calculate the odds for the NEXT card to come. I know this is overly simplifying the problem, but it works for me.

Onaflag...........

[edtost]

exact pot odds are almost never meaningful in a postflop nl decision, eyeballing how many chips there are should be good enough.

[MoneyMoy]

Cool, thanks. I was kind of hoping to hear that. There are enough other things in my game I need to work on as it is!

[Mark1808]

I agree with you it can get confusing in NL. You have to practice and make it a habit even in pots you are not in. Train yourself to multiply the number of callers by the called bet at the end of the action and add it to the previous round. You may be off a little due to blinds, rake and people who don't call raises, but this method should slightly underestimate the pot which is a good thing. I believe a good NL player should always know the pot size so he best knows how to set or accept odds.

[MoneyMoy]

I appreciate the reply. That's pretty much how I've been trying doing it, although I admit I'm still piss poor at maintaining concentration during hands I'm not involved in.

With regards to handling the odds, that's actually where I've been running into problems which is what made me start this thread to begin with. Specifically when I'm trying to price out any flush draws, which for me seems to be the most common scenario where I'm trying to set the odds, I'll know my pot size number is definitely smaller than the actual chips out there due to the guys that folded to raises. Then I suspect I'm probably a little all over the place, sometimes not betting enough, and other times probably overcompensating and betting too much.

So maybe I'm not thinking about it correctly. Maybe it's ok to know that I'm off by a little bit in my pricing, but other factors should weigh more heavily in determining exactly how much I should overbet to compensate? For example...

Let's say you hold Ah9h. Do you bet differently if the flop comes Ad9d2c vs Ad7d2c?

[Gordon Scott]

In a 6/12 game where the pots get big and hard to eyeball, I start with a stack of chips in each hand.

Outs in one hand BBs in the other.

Best of Luck

Gordon Scott

[Mark1808]

The only time you would be off much is if a raise drove out a few players and you can make that adjustment quite easily. The dealers leave the money in front of the players until the pot is right, so a quick scan around the table should get it right. I do know what you mean about concentration, focus comes through practice. Their is a lot going on in a casino Texas Hold Em game. You just need a system like the dealers have for keeping track.

In the example you gave it would depend a lot on how many players, your position and the location and amount of pre flop raises. Knowing something about the players would also help. But generally speaking if I feel I'm ahead and their is a flush draw I like to bet at least half the pot. A half pot bet will lay 3 - 1 odds if there is only one caller. I try to randomize my value bets so as not to be predictable. Harrington recommends 50 - 100% of the pot.

I notice many people use the term knock out the flush draws. I don't want to knock them out, I just want them to pay more for their draws than they're worth. If you always bet so much that the flush draws fold you would be giving up quite a bit long term. Your goal is have them make a mistake, hopefully as big as possible.