AQs in BB L:1 50+5

[TheUsher]

I realized I played this very passively but something just seemed very wrong with the bets. I thought I'd be ahead but the cold-caller and the original raiser betting on every street puzzled me. Note the exact bet to put me all-in on the river. Any other way to play it? Check/raise the flop perhaps? It would be at least half my stack if not all-in if this option was chosen though, right? Bet the flop into the raiser?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t905)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t925)
MP2 (t1395)
MP3 (t1340)
CO (t770)
Button (t895)
SB (t640)
Hero (t1000)
UTG (t1130)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t30</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t30, SB calls t20, Hero calls t15, UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15.

Flop: (t207.50) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t150</font>, Button calls t150, SB folds, Hero calls t150, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds.

Turn: (t657.50) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t250</font>, Button calls t250, Hero calls t250.

River: (t1407.50) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t570</font>, Hero folds.

River action actually should include button calling the all-in but converter messed it up.

Final Pot: t1977.50

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP3 has 8c Kc (straight, nine high).
Button has 8s 7s (flush, queen high).
Outcome: MP3 wins t1407.50. Button wins t570. </font>

[microbet]

With 7 players seeing the flop, I think you have to be more aggressive on it.

[PhilipBass]

I would have checked and folded on the flop because there many people seeing the flop for a small amount of chips.

If you decided to play passively, why put any more money in the pot from that point on?

What possible card could have come on the turn or river that would made you happy?

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have checked and folded on the flop because there many people seeing the flop for a small amount of chips.

If you decided to play passively, why put any more money in the pot from that point on?

What possible card could have come on the turn or river that would made you happy?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't looking for a card to improve on the turn/river. I wanted to see if original raiser would fire another bet and if cold caller would do the same as the flop action. If I'd check/fold TPTK every time that happened, I shouldn't call pre-flop then.

[microbet]

If you are that worried about draws, then push.

I would certainly be willing to take a chance that no one flopped a set or slowplayed AA-QQ.

[lastchance]

CR all-in on flop, IMHO, is a very nice line to take here. Once you call the flop bet, I don't see how you're supposed to fold, and calling the turn bet with that many bad scare card out there is pretty awful, IMHO.

Another line could be to bet on the flop, and fold to a raise. I don't know if I like that much either though.

[PhilipBass]

It's hard to fold AQs before the flop in that situation.

Your hand is an exercise with dealing with reverse implied odds. That is, your chances of winning the pot were inversely proportional to how much money went into the pot after the flop. You were either a tiny favorite on the flop or a huge underdog, due to the combination of many players either flopping a set or making a draw later on. Calling in that spot is giving your money away.

I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS want a turn card that will make me happy and signify that I've improved at the expense of the others. In your hand, I believe that wasn't possible. That's another case for folding on the flop.

Because of this, you were guessing both on the flop and on the turn. I don't like guessing because it's possible to guess wrong. Folding on the flop means you give up chances at winning a small pot while it's still early without taking a big hit to your chip stack.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
It's hard to fold AQs before the flop in that situation.

Your hand is an exercise with dealing with reverse implied odds. That is, your chances of winning the pot were inversely proportional to how much money went into the pot after the flop. You were either a tiny favorite on the flop or a huge underdog, due to the combination of many players either flopping a set or making a draw later on. Calling in that spot is giving your money away.

I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS want a turn card that will make me happy and signify that I've improved at the expense of the others. In your hand, I believe that wasn't possible. That's another case for folding on the flop.

Because of this, you were guessing both on the flop and on the turn. I don't like guessing because it's possible to guess wrong. Folding on the flop means you give up chances at winning a small pot while it's still early without taking a big hit to your chip stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's a damn good reply. Just what I wanted to hear. Thank you.

[PhilipBass]

Thank you!

[curtains]

"Because of this, you were guessing both on the flop and on the turn. I don't like guessing because it's possible to guess wrong. Folding on the flop means you give up chances at winning a small pot while it's still early without taking a big hit to your chip stack. "

This pot isn't so small right now. There's about 400 chips in the pot, which is quite signifigant when you have a 1000 chip stack. This simply isn't a clear fold.


Secondly - "You were either a tiny favorite on the flop or a huge underdog, due to the combination of many players either flopping a set or making a draw later on. Calling in that spot is giving your money away."

What hand are you a tiny favorite over here? There's no flush draw, and an unlikely straight draw. You are probably either way ahead or way behind.


I'm not advocating any specific play right now, because I want to think about it more, but I know that folding isn't clear cut.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
"Because of this, you were guessing both on the flop and on the turn. I don't like guessing because it's possible to guess wrong. Folding on the flop means you give up chances at winning a small pot while it's still early without taking a big hit to your chip stack. "

This pot isn't so small right now. There's about 400 chips in the pot, which is quite signifigant when you have a 1000 chip stack. This simply isn't a clear fold.


Secondly - "You were either a tiny favorite on the flop or a huge underdog, due to the combination of many players either flopping a set or making a draw later on. Calling in that spot is giving your money away."

What hand are you a tiny favorite over here? There's no flush draw, and an unlikely straight draw. You are probably either way ahead or way behind.


I'm not advocating any specific play right now, because I want to think about it more, but I know that folding isn't clear cut.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding isn't clear cut obviously, but when it comes to normal play, this hand just seemed so weird to me at the time. Perhaps that's why the hand wasn't "normal" at all since their hands were completely different than any regular hands that would play this flop, other than KK/AA+sets. I thought check/calling, although passive, would be the correct play as if the original raiser was bluffing, he'd shut down unless he caught something. I was correct in my assessment of the hand, unfortunately getting unlucky at the river.

I'm real hesitant to push my stack in here with TPTK against 2 opponents but would that have been the correct play? If it were one opponent, this hand wouldn't have even been posted.

[PhilipBass]

AQ of clubs would be a 51.5% favorite on the flop versus one player holding 98 of diamonds and one player holding AK of spades. How's that for a concrete example!

However, against so many players on the flop, it's very possible that someone flopped a set. A straight draw is possible. It's early in the tournament, and players are likely to hold anything. The best case scenario for AQs is to be up against QK, QJ, or QT. But those hands may not necessarily give AQ much action after the flop.

While folding AQ on the flop in that situation is not correct 100% of the time, it's a matter of either winning a small pot or losing a large one. I won't take that gamble early in a tournament.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
It's hard to fold AQs before the flop in that situation.

Your hand is an exercise with dealing with reverse implied odds. That is, your chances of winning the pot were inversely proportional to how much money went into the pot after the flop. You were either a tiny favorite on the flop or a huge underdog, due to the combination of many players either flopping a set or making a draw later on. Calling in that spot is giving your money away.

I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS want a turn card that will make me happy and signify that I've improved at the expense of the others. In your hand, I believe that wasn't possible. That's another case for folding on the flop.

Because of this, you were guessing both on the flop and on the turn. I don't like guessing because it's possible to guess wrong. Folding on the flop means you give up chances at winning a small pot while it's still early without taking a big hit to your chip stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a great reply if the PF raise was to, for example, 50 chips. But it wasn't - it was a minraise, signifying the minraiser was a moron with two cards. He almost certainly didn't have KK or AA after 3 limpers.

Therefore, CR on the flop (pot's big enough to push but t500 with the rest going in on the turn works, too).

[PhilipBass]

Oh boy, people will min-raise with ANYTHING early in a single table tournament. Min-raising with AA or KK versus several limpers in the first round is ideal because then nobody will put the raiser on a premium hand. I don't put min-raisers on anything. Maybe they have AA. Maybe they're just sweetening the pot.

TheUsher, it's way too early to go all-in on the flop. Either you'll be called by a set or everyone will fold. In the 50-100 rounds, going all-in would be okay. Then, you might get called by a weaker queen.

[curtains]

I'd wager you that a decent percentage of players at this level would happily call a flop allin with KQ here, and oftentimes worse hands.