Value call on flop? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Chris_P

03-27-2005, 03:12 PM

*i was prompted to value call as i was watching the fillmaff video.....*

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
5 folds, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, MP3 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

Didn't really expect to get bet into on the river makes me think i should'nt of value called...i was trying to spice up my play

drdre2001mm

03-27-2005, 03:13 PM

I like it even though the turn card is far from being your best friend.

Redd

03-27-2005, 03:21 PM

I don't like it. First, if you're planning to raise the turn, you'll probably scare off the BB then anyways. So the one extra bet you'd get from BB's flop overcall would still be achieved when MP3 calls your flop raise. And you're giving up a chance to go to war with MP3, should he have a smaller flush.

CallMeIshmael

03-27-2005, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And you're giving up a chance to go to war with MP3, should he have a smaller flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is impossible. (or at least very close to it)

It should read more along the lines of: go to war in case MP3 has a set/overpair on the flop.

Redd

03-27-2005, 03:36 PM

It's not impossible, but your point is valid. In case Villain wants to go to war with anything on the flop, however, I'm still raising.

PokerBob

03-27-2005, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
*i was prompted to value call as i was watching the fillmaff video.....*

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
5 folds, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, MP3 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

Didn't really expect to get bet into on the river makes me think i should'nt of value called...i was trying to spice up my play

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard. ni han

adamstewart

03-27-2005, 03:47 PM

I like it.

philnewall

03-27-2005, 03:48 PM

No point in slowplaying in the 2/4, jam it up.

Redd

03-27-2005, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Standard. ni han

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dammit, this always happens when I respond to a SS post that I mistakenly think is in the micro forum.

Could someone elaborate on the advantages of slowplaying here?

CallMeIshmael

03-27-2005, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not impossible

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to make sure that you're aware it is only possible if MP3 is willing to cap with 9Ts (or worse).

So, for this flop to give flush over flush:

1) He has to cap about 30% of his hands (im estimating here)
2) He has to have flopped a flush (which probably account for like 1% of his capping hands)

The product of these two numbers is so small as to be irrelevant.

mantasm

03-27-2005, 04:21 PM

I'd like to raise the flop and call a 3bet, then raise the turn. I think he likes his hand enough to 3bet the flop, but a cap will slow him down. Just calling a flop bet then raising the turn is scary too.

Redd

03-27-2005, 04:21 PM

Yeah, in my original post I hadn't noticed the PF action, and decided to stop digging myself a friggin' grave and keep my mouth shut after I noticed. I'm clear that it's pretty unlikely.

CallMeIshmael

03-27-2005, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Could someone elaborate on the advantages of slowplaying here?

[/ QUOTE ]

The last thing in the world you want is give BB a reason to fold?

I think he calls more often than your are 3-bet when you raise.

EDIT: I'm not sure which line I like more. I'm just giving a reason to slowplay the flop. (occasionally fastplaying is the way to be deceptive here. And, if you are against a thinking opponent, a raise might be more of a slowplay)

Redd

03-27-2005, 04:23 PM

Would you raise the turn, then?

Luv2DriveTT

03-27-2005, 04:24 PM

I don't like. MP3 bets out, you MUST raise since he capped pre-flop. If he will 3 bet the flop (most likely if he is agro), then call and pop him on the turn. The paired 7 on the turn is not a happy card, but I'll take this one to 3 bets on the turn before considering calling it down.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

CallMeIshmael

03-27-2005, 04:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, in my original post I hadn't noticed the PF action

[/ QUOTE ]

Happens all the time.

CallMeIshmael

03-27-2005, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would you raise the turn, then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the edit in my post.

I think I still raise the flop. I was just giving a reason to slowplay.

I think I'm tempted to raise the flop, call if he 3-bets, then pop the turn.

adamstewart

03-27-2005, 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like. MP3 bets out, you MUST raise since he capped pre-flop. If he will 3 bet the flop (most likely if he is agro), then call and pop him on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guys, think about this: The highest heart villain(s) can have is the T /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Given this board, how often do you think villain will 3-bet here? (I think you're over-estimating it).

Adam

adamstewart

03-27-2005, 04:44 PM

Another advantage to slowplaying the flop:

A number of turn cards could give someone a straight or straight draw. I'd love to have someone sucked in with one of those....

Adam

CallMeIshmael

03-27-2005, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, think about this: The highest heart villain(s) can have is the T /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Given this board, how often do you think villain will 3-bet here? (I think you're over-estimating it).

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

At the same time, what are the odds he calls the turn raise, with a hand that he wouldnt 3-bet the flop with?

Make the assumptions that:

1) He has a typical capping range
2) He will 3-bet any set/overpair

I think 2) is pretty valid (though I could be convinced otherwise), in that any overpair is looking to charge a lone heart (that it can't have). Same with a set.

Luv2DriveTT

03-27-2005, 04:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like. MP3 bets out, you MUST raise since he capped pre-flop. If he will 3 bet the flop (most likely if he is agro), then call and pop him on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guys, think about this: The highest heart villain(s) can have is the T /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Given this board, how often do you think villain will 3-bet here? (I think you're over-estimating it).

[/ QUOTE ]

Often enough, because he won't belive you have two hearts more than 60% of the time (let alone the nut flush).

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

Chris_P

03-27-2005, 05:16 PM

Flop play: first and foremost raising here i believe would have lost me 1+1/2 bb later on (if he calls), ive put this clown on top pair/set......if i raise and get 3-betted its gonna change the momentum of the hand im gonna be forced to call him down on the turn and river losing 1bb......

Turn Play: the re-raise here confirms to me that it is top pair now two pair, a call here i think is weak as im giving him far too much credit for his hand with no real reads on him....

River: whats he doing??!?!? why not simply 3 bet the turn, i was thinking unless this is quite a well play boat im not worried and i simply didnt believe his raise, as this was not a play a viewed him possible of playing

If any ones interested:
Results:
 ChPhill88 shows [ Kh, Ah ] a flush, ace high.
Rox007 doesn't show [ Qs, Ac ] two pairs, queens and sevens. 

AND MHIG.....wooooooooooo

sthief09

03-27-2005, 05:19 PM

enough excuses. raise the gd flop

adamstewart

03-27-2005, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guys, think about this: The highest heart villain(s) can have is the T /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Given this board, how often do you think villain will 3-bet here? (I think you're over-estimating it).

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

At the same time, what are the odds he calls the turn raise, with a hand that he wouldnt 3-bet the flop with?

Make the assumptions that:

1) He has a typical capping range
2) He will 3-bet any set/overpair

I think 2) is pretty valid (though I could be convinced otherwise), in that any overpair is looking to charge a lone heart (that it can't have). Same with a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, if *I* was villain with an overpair here (obviously no hearts), I wouldn't 3-bet the flop. I'd call, and lead a non-heart turn (stop'n go).

Adam

philnewall

03-27-2005, 05:25 PM

Christopher, here are my detailed thoughts.

Firstly, this pot has been capped by 3 players so presumably at least one of your opponents has a hand. Wait for your copy of TOP to arrive and read through the chapter about deception and the size of the pot, the ability of your opponents and the no. of players in the pot.

What range of hands can your main adversary have? AA-JJ, AK and AQ. The least liekly hands are JJ and QQ because of the board. This leaves AA, KK, and AK, all whithout the hearts. If a 4th heart comes they're going to be scared into check/calling you down, so you lose value.

Raise the flop, make the third player pay to draw dead on you, if you're reraised then cap it up. Your opponent isn't going to lay his hand down, so concentrate on getting max value. If a non-heart comes on the turn he'll probably pull his stop-and-go play on you, hoping you have the bare ace of hearts and you can raise him again, and on the river.

A poorly played hand.

Chris_P

03-27-2005, 05:36 PM

Philip, here are MY rough views.....

The villian caps it preflop(or calls a cap preflop can't be bothered to look) the best heart he can have is the 10 so 1010 is a possibility here along with AA-JJ AK-AQ, the bet on the flop could be anything from overcards to a set.......

There is no way i can safely assume he will raise on the turn or river (where i want him too) to gain maximum value with those big bets, if i raise him on the flop....

i would not normally slowplay when i flop the nuts i was simply spicing up my play as i originally posted and stand by my play as it has to be +ev!!!

ErrantNight

03-27-2005, 05:37 PM

a number of turn cards... i'm thinking "hearts" here... will fold, or at least check/call your opponents...

ErrantNight

03-27-2005, 05:39 PM

so would fast playing.

adamstewart

03-27-2005, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
a number of turn cards... i'm thinking "hearts" here... will fold, or at least check/call your opponents...

[/ QUOTE ]

ya, but more than 3/4 of the time, a non-heart will fall. (If we're thinking "longrun" and "mathematics" here, this is an important thing to consider).

Adam

Luv2DriveTT

03-27-2005, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, if *I* was villain with an overpair here (obviously no hearts), I wouldn't 3-bet the flop. I'd call, and lead a non-heart turn (stop'n go).

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't give the villain too much credit. You are a thinking player, the villain is most likely not. But even if the villain plays as you would, thats still great for you. +EV.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

adamstewart

03-27-2005, 05:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, if *I* was villain with an overpair here (obviously no hearts), I wouldn't 3-bet the flop. I'd call, and lead a non-heart turn (stop'n go).

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't give the villain too much credit. You are a thinking player, the villain is most likely not.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

*blushes*

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Adam

ErrantNight

03-27-2005, 05:44 PM

how about the times they don't pick up a straight draw or whatever else you'd like them to get? they're not folding to your flop raise. they might wait to bet/check raise a "safe" turn... but you're not driving them out

chesspain

03-27-2005, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
First, if you're planning to raise the turn, you'll probably scare off the BB then anyways. So the one extra bet you'd get from BB's flop overcall would still be achieved when MP3 calls your flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that Chris wants to:

1) Keep the BB in for one bet now, if possible, rather than lose him to a raise...and
2) Encourage MP3 to bet out again on the turn, where he can catch him (and possibly the BB as well) for a double-size bet...since a flop raise could easily shut down this player depending on his cards.

[ QUOTE ]
And you're giving up a chance to go to war with MP3, should he have a smaller flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

You did actually read through the hand, didn't you? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

adamstewart

03-27-2005, 05:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
how about the times they don't pick up a straight draw or whatever else you'd like them to get? they're not folding to your flop raise. they might wait to bet/check raise a "safe" turn... but you're not driving them out

[/ QUOTE ]

All your points are true.

Keep in mind, this wasn't my main rationale for slow-playing, but rather an advantage to to doing so.

The more I think about it, the more I'm liking RAISING this flop, anyway.

Adam

CallMeIshmael

03-27-2005, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, if *I* was villain with an overpair here (obviously no hearts), I wouldn't 3-bet the flop. I'd call, and lead a non-heart turn (stop'n go).

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

I would too. And thats why I said I could be convinced that my assumptions werent great. BUT, just because *we* wouldnt do it, doesnt make it standard for our opposition.

ErrantNight

03-27-2005, 06:01 PM

(not trying to be difficult)

what was your main rationale?

i agree with you that this flop getting 3-bet isn't terribly likely... but for the same reason people won't 3-bet it (afraid of the flush), they'll 3-bet it (afraid of letting a flush draw... as if they could do anything about it).

chesspain

03-27-2005, 06:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how about the times they don't pick up a straight draw or whatever else you'd like them to get? they're not folding to your flop raise. they might wait to bet/check raise a "safe" turn... but you're not driving them out

[/ QUOTE ]

All your points are true.

Keep in mind, this wasn't my main rationale for slow-playing, but rather an advantage to to doing so.

The more I think about it, the more I'm liking RAISING this flop, anyway.
Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if in the long-term scheme of things it really makes much of difference whether Hero raises the flop or waits to raise the turn?

PaultheS

03-27-2005, 07:00 PM

i like raising the flop here. if a heart falls anywhere, you're not getting any more action out of your heartless opponent. hope that he has AA-KK (or QQ-JJ) and go to war right away while he's still willing.

if he doesn't have one of those, what are you putting him on that he'll call the turn raise? i can't see any reasonable hands except maybe AQs if he's a little LAG.

CallMeIshmael

03-27-2005, 07:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i like raising the flop here. if a heart falls anywhere, you're not getting any more action out of your heartless opponent. hope that he has AA-KK (or QQ-JJ) and go to war right away while he's still willing.

if he doesn't have one of those, what are you putting him on that he'll call the turn raise? i can't see any reasonable hands except maybe AQs if he's a little LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dig it all the way, as long as you add ThTx to the list of hands he calls the turn raise with.