If 150-250 BB downswings are normal

[MikeR]

How do pros pay themselves each month? I wish there were a better word for pro, I mean the guy who just plays ring games, not televised tourneys or anything. Would you say that a pro generally keeps a bankroll very much higher than 300BBs?

[threeonefour]

300bb is not a bankroll if you plan on taking money from it each month. taking money from a bankroll basically dampens your upswings and makes your downswings more dramatic, as a result you need a larger bankroll.

At least that is how i manage my bankroll(I am not a "pro" but i take money out each month for bills and such).

[MikeR]

Taking money out each month for bills and such, how much do you personally feel comfortable with as a bankroll for your limits?

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Taking money out each month for bills and such, how much do you personally feel comfortable with as a bankroll for your limits?

[/ QUOTE ]

1000BB minimum

[peachy]

i have recently taken some nasty hits...and at the time of onset my bank roll was around 1000bb's of the limit i was most frequent at, therefore when I took a monster downswing (more than double the numbers u have posted) I wasnt greatly harmed...but it did stink...especially since im used to going your # or double in the POSITIVE direction. Yet for the 2 months this has been happening I have still managed to take out what money i needed for other things as well. And im no "pro" by ur standards...so im sure most of them are much more stable in thier bankroll and play than i am!

[jayheaps]

my biggest is around 145, i have admittedly been quite lucky. Whenever I am down more than 60, i'll drop down levels for a couple days just to get more confidence since I am much less variance at lower levels due to consistent weak-tight play.

[bicyclekick]

The pros I know (which isn't all that many...maybe 6) I know have insanely more than they need for any of the games they are playing. There really isn't any need to pay themselves, either...and the daily swings really don't mean anything. The guys I'm speaking of could quit for at least a few years and not play/work and be just fine.

It of course becomes trickier whne you don't have an inflated bankroll, but if my livelyhood depended on it I would only be comfortable having a 1000bb playing roll which I could lose and be fine for a year w/o it. Of course you could get away with less but that's getting a lot closer to gambling. 600bb minimum though I guess.

I've been lucky...I've only had a 240bb loss and that was back at 3/6. I am on a -275ish bb live streak at 30/60 though. I rule at live poker apparently.

[astroglide]

i keep 400bb at each site and i don't even play for a living

[IndieMatty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Taking money out each month for bills and such, how much do you personally feel comfortable with as a bankroll for your limits?

[/ QUOTE ]

1000BB minimum

[/ QUOTE ]

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
How do pros pay themselves each month?

[/ QUOTE ]

By having a poker bankroll and several months of living expenses.

[flub]

imo when you're a pro you dont have a 'bankroll'. Everything you own is you're bankroll. The stocks you own are part of you're bankroll as much as the money in your wallet or on your poker acct. Any liquid asset anyway.

To take a shot at a limit I'd like 300BB's plus 2 months worth of living expenses. I wouldn't hesitate to drop back down after a 65ish BB loss either. Or after a sustained flat / slightly profitable period.

-flub

[mantasm]

I think if your house is part of your bankroll, you're not a pro, you're a guy with a gambling problem.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
How do pros pay themselves each month? I wish there were a better word for pro, I mean the guy who just plays ring games, not televised tourneys or anything. Would you say that a pro generally keeps a bankroll very much higher than 300BBs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am "turning pro" in the fall. (I am taking a year leave from my teaching job.) I will be playing 6-8 tables at 3/6 and will have a $10K bankroll. I also will have 4 months living expenses set aside. I know that if things really went south, I could always substitute teach to get by, as my monthly expenses are only around 1.7K.

Thursday I put in a 30 hour live session at Canterbury Park 6/12 and lost 90BB. I apparently rule more than bicyclekick at live poker.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]

Thursday I put in a 30 hour live session at Canterbury Park 6/12 and lost 90BB. I apparently rule more than bicyclekick at live poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Negative. My last canterbury session (a week ago saturday) in 12 hours I dropped 92 big bets in the 30/60 game. The game was off the hook insane-o.

[TStoneMBD]

its important for a poker player, playing for a living to not be living paycheck to paycheck, or good swing to good swing. if youre going to pursue playing poker for a living, you should probably be at a point in which you arent concerned with survival. you have enough money to last you a long while. whether you have a good month or bad month wont affect how you eat. if you have enough money, short term slides wont be a mental constraint, and you will be far more capable accepting the long term mentality that is crucial in playing poker successfully.

1000BB minimum sounds like good advice.

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
imo when you're a pro you dont have a 'bankroll'. Everything you own is you're bankroll. The stocks you own are part of you're bankroll as much as the money in your wallet or on your poker acct. Any liquid asset anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this is a retarded way to look at things, if this opinion is held by many other 'pros' then I suppose I'm not a true gambler.

-Brad

[droidboy]

1000BB minimum sounds like good advice.

Yes, this is a good base from which to play if poker is your sole source of income. If, by the grace of god, you end up with enough to break out of middle limits, I would suggest an even larger bankroll, maybe as much as 2000 BB.

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com (http://www.pokerstove.com)

[tolbiny]

I am currently playing 5-10 shorthanded to pay my mortgage ect while i am back in school. My rakeback check each month covers 70-80% of my expenses, and i use that as the majority of my "paycheck".

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Thursday I put in a 30 hour live session at Canterbury Park 6/12 and lost 90BB. I apparently rule more than bicyclekick at live poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Negative. My last canterbury session (a week ago saturday) in 12 hours I dropped 92 big bets in the 30/60 game. The game was off the hook insane-o.

[/ QUOTE ]

I apologize. You rule.

[sthief09]

[censored] both of you. in the same session of 20/40, I had a 6 rack upswing followed by a 10 rack downswing

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]

I've been lucky...I've only had a 240bb loss and that was back at 3/6

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a good guy and all BK and you give great advice....but I [censored] hate you /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

-SmileyEH

[flub]

If you paid for your house out of your bankroll to some extent it can be seen as part of your bankroll. It's so illiquid I wouldn't know what fractional percent to apply to it though. I did put in a liquidity clause in my message.

Basically if every penny you have comes from poker whenever you buy anything the money is coming out of your bankroll. If you buy a pair of jeans it comes out of your bankroll. When you pay your rent it comes out of your bankroll. If you buy stocks you're changing part of your bankroll from cash to stock, but it is still part of your bankroll. If you were to put your money in a Roth IRA and buy stocks though it would not be part of your bankroll since you couldn't liquidate it.

If your bankroll is 1000BB it would be silly to keep it all on a poker site or as cash. Some should be in a money market account, and some should be in extremely liquid higher yield asset like stocks or bonds.

-flub

[droidboy]

[ QUOTE ]
[censored] both of you. in the same session of 20/40, I had a 6 rack upswing followed by a 10 rack downswing

[/ QUOTE ]

Y'all plays at Canterbury eh? Cool! I played in Jerry's game a few times before it went bust. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Maybe I'll check it out again when I go back to visit in September. [I'll actually be in town for 30 hours in April, not quite enough time]. Last time I played the 30/60 there, it was just a few young guns who were gun shy. It got down to 3-4 players, and they all ran away.

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com (http://www.pokerstove.com)

[IndianOcean]

ummm.. i am a pro.. How do I pay myself. don't know yet. First two weeks were good. Third sucked. Fourth is good. (third week was at Borgoata, may be this live game thing isn't for me).

I'll let you know after 6 months. If i make it as a pro.

[TheDelChop]

Ok, first of all, I do not think that you need to have a 1000BB bankroll if you are making you living playing live poker. This maybe very true if you are playing in the very aggressive and wild online that regularly occur, but if you are playing live poker, how can you tell me you really expect to ever have more than 200-300BB downswing. I am sorry, but if you are having these kind of swings on a regular basis then you need to consider whether or not you should be a pro. I think 400-500 BB is fine, the trick is to take of steady amounts of cash, so the weeks that you run extremly well are balanced with the weeks you run badly. Just because you make 150BB in a week doesn't mean you have to use them all.

[Belok]

For online pros, they get their rakeback once a month. And that number could very well be exceeding 2000$. Helps with the payment to yourself.

[Peter_rus]

You don't need huge bankroll if you're pro. 200BB's will be more than sufficient. But you must have a skill to move down in limits if you're face 80-100BB downstreak, and move up only when you re-build. Of course if you play the lowest limit you need at least 300BB's

I always used such trick when climbing up in limits. I have had some returns, but i suspect it's the best way to maximize a profit/hour and increase your playing skill.

It's some rough estimation of Kelly's criteria which i used when played blackjack 2 years ago in Moscow casinos.

[twang]

[ QUOTE ]
But you must have a skill to move down in limits if you're face 80-100BB downstreak, and move up only when you re-build. Of course if you play the lowest limit you need at least 300BB's

I always used such trick when climbing up in limits. I have had some returns, but i suspect it's the best way to maximize a profit/hour and increase your playing skill.

It's some rough estimation of Kelly's criteria which i used when played blackjack 2 years ago in Moscow casinos.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if I understood this money management strategy correctly. Do you drop down a limit when you take a 100bb downswing, rebuild at the lower limit and then take shots at a limit above..? Could you elaborate?

/twang

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you say that a pro generally keeps a bankroll very much higher than 300BBs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya think?

Actually, it's a seperate 'living expenses' roll that covers 6 months to a year in bills. If you're whole main worth is tied up in 300 bets, you shouldn't be playing for a living.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
imo when you're a pro you dont have a 'bankroll'. Everything you own is you're bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

It may come from your bankroll and your profits, but it isn't considered 'part' of your bankroll. You shouldn't have a possibility of going to the felt with all your assets outside your 'operating' bankroll.

b

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[censored] both of you. in the same session of 20/40, I had a 6 rack upswing followed by a 10 rack downswing

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank god the avatar is back.









Oh, and that downswing BLOWS.

[highland]

[ QUOTE ]
Some should be in a money market account, and some should be in extremely liquid higher yield asset like stocks or bonds.


[/ QUOTE ]
Is there any good way to get some interest on your playing bankroll? I really don't like the idea of having my bank statement show me depositing and withdrawing large sums of cash many times each year, but keeping 300BB at 2 or 3 sites is foregoing quite a bit of interest...

cheers,
highland

[Peter_rus]

You have 2K$ bankroll. If you're skilled enough player to be profitable at 5/10, you can start right from this level even though you have only 200BB bankroll.

1 possibility: Ok, you start from bad run and after a couple of sessions you're down to 1.2K. Right here you must go down to 3/6. Ok, your bad run still continues and you're down to 600$, now you must go to 2/4. At 2/4 bad run ends up and you're up to 1.2K, from this time you can safely go to 3/6 again.

2 possibility: You're up to 4K total at 5/10, now you can safely move to 10/20 if and only if you'll move down to 5/10 if you loose 2K.

[twang]

Got it. Thanks Peter.

/twang

[TStoneMBD]

ive been playing for a living for a year now, at live casinos with a 300bb bankroll, and ive come to the realization that its not pretty. 1000BBs is sound advice.

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
Thursday I put in a 30 hour live session at Canterbury Park 6/12 and lost 90BB. I apparently rule more than bicyclekick at live poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just my 2 cents, but why would you ever play for thirty hours straight? It can't be good for your results. I think Ray Zee has cautioned people against doing just that in a few threads here.

[esspo]

I hope you don't really do that. You are costing yourself the time value of that money + you are in effect giving each poker site an interest free loan on your money. If you crunch the numbers I think you'll find that is a very expensive way (i.e. no interest and uncompensated risk) to manage your bankroll. Just a thought...

[flub]

[ QUOTE ]

Is there any good way to get some interest on your playing bankroll? I really don't like the idea of having my bank statement show me depositing and withdrawing large sums of cash many times each year, but keeping 300BB at 2 or 3 sites is foregoing quite a bit of interest...

cheers,
highland

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but I don't know of a way.

If you play multiple sites keeping a days worth of buy ins on each site plus backup funds on neteller has worked to some degree for me. So if you do poorly on one site you can use the neteller reserves to keep going uninterupted there. Instead of keeping a larger amount on every site you play.

-flub

[Subfallen]

Is a rack 20 BB's? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't need huge bankroll if you're pro. 200BB's will be more than sufficient. But you must have a skill to move down in limits if you're face 80-100BB downstreak, and move up only when you re-build. Of course if you play the lowest limit you need at least 300BB's

I always used such trick when climbing up in limits. I have had some returns, but i suspect it's the best way to maximize a profit/hour and increase your playing skill.

It's some rough estimation of Kelly's criteria which i used when played blackjack 2 years ago in Moscow casinos.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this logic at all. If you have a 200BB bet bankroll for 10-20 and have a 100BB losing day, which WILL happen, you need to move down several limits. If you want to be a pro, your bankroll shoule be a good 800-1000 BB. If you want to move up in stakes, obviously you need to juice up the BR to be comfortable for the nest level. A;ways be conservative when rationing your bankroll, there is no reason to cripple yourself because your over-extended.

[Tommy Angelo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
imo when you're a pro you dont have a 'bankroll'. Everything you own is you're bankroll. The stocks you own are part of you're bankroll as much as the money in your wallet or on your poker acct. Any liquid asset anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this is a retarded way to look at things, if this opinion is held by many other 'pros' then I suppose I'm not a true gambler.

-Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not so much a matter of opinion. It's a matter of what exactly would have to transpire before the pro gets a job. If a pro knows for sure that he will not get a job unless he is flat broke, then of course everything he has is his bankroll. It could be no other way.

It's not retarded for a non-rich young person to invest everything, financially and spiritually and passionately, into a career. What's retarded is thinking you won't, when you know you will.

Tommy

[flub]

wow, well said.

[albanat0r]

I have a little bit of a different take. I'm a high stakes pro (50/100 - 100/200) with no other source of income except investments made from poker winnings. I keep a chunk of my money in my poker bankroll, but it's not really a set in stone amount; just enough to cover me if I have a downswing. However, I have a separate pool of money (call it "the rest of my money") which I use for paying bills, eating, etc... But I've got more than enough in "the rest of my money" to reinvest into my poker bankroll several times if necessary. This allows me to play comfortably, adding and withdrawing to my bankroll as I please without the fear of losing everything I own in one session. While this is a little different than when I played low and middle stakes as I didn't have that much to fall back on, if you can find a way to gain the mentality that a few bad sessions won't kill you, you'll play better. I guess what I'm saying is that your roll should be well funded (I think 500 bb is fine), but it's more important to know you have money behind you in case something goes awry. It just gives you a comfort zone in which you're not worried about how you do every session, or every day or week. Just keep good records and play well without overanalyzing how one session went, and the money should start building up.

It's like owning a small business- while you keep your personal records and your business records separate, you will take money out of your business when your business does well, and you will put money into your business when you need capital. As long as you keep track of where everything is and don't overcompensate one way or the other, you'll be fine.

Lee

[droidboy]

[bI have a little bit of a different take. I'm a high stakes pro (50/100 - 100/200) with no other source of income except investments made from poker winnings.

I guess what I'm saying is that your roll should be well funded (I think 500 bb is fine), but it's more important to know you have money behind you in case something goes awry.[/b]

While I express it differently (net worth of 1000+ big bets), this is exactly right. No matter how good you are, bad things can happen, whether through luck, tilt, playing against players who are too good, or taking shots. Murphy's Law applies all to well go gambling too. Having a base from which you can rebuild when something goes awry is vital to playing in high stakes games.

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com (http://www.pokerstove.com)