200/400 online hand - AJs - tough on every street

[stoxtrader]

200/400 online 9 handed I get AhJh UTG.

villain is a solid winning player, has 80k on the table.

I limp, MP1 raises, folded to me and I 3 bet, he calls.

flop As7h7c

I check/call

Turn (As7h7c) [9d]

I check/call

River (As7h7c) [9d] [Js]

I bet, he raises, I.............

and how bad were the other streets?

[Schneids]

I'm pretty sure I know who you're referring to and I'd 3 bet the river. I like the flop and turn. I think he is value raising AK.

[James282]

Three bet his ass, you have properly underrepresented your hand and you should expect a raise from AK or AQ here a huge percentage of the time. If he fourbets you have to pay off since he could have AJ also, but I think you need to three bet and see what he does from there. As for the rest of the hand, I would've raised preflop and went from there....but it looks like you really [censored] with his head here and this looks like a great "image" way to play this hand, which is pretty important on this site.
-James

[hogger]

I have played some hands unorthadox against very solid players. That being said I would never check/call turn!
River is very tough, I think this is one of those rare times 3 betting would be bad,I guess it all depends if this guy can get out of line with AK on river? Most importantly how does villian precieve you?
Villian has a tough time reading your hand so I think he cannot call a reraise or has you buried most of the time. It has to be a call the more I think about it.
Interested how others respond.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd 3 bet the river. I like the flop and turn. I think he is value raising AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nikla]

Real weird line you pulled here. I'm really not sure if I like it or not. On the river I'd 3-bet and I'd like to say I'd fold to a 4-bet, but I'm really not sure whether or not I have that fold in me unless I'm up against lakerman.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif The river 3-bet seems fairly automatic though. Interesting hand none the less, sorry I couldn't provide any real input.
Looking forward to the results.
-Nikla

[James282]

What is out of line about raising AK here? Hero's hand looks like a weak ace or KK.
-James

[bicyclekick]

I think I know who you're talking about as well and i'd 3 bet him every single time. Obviously you're calling a 4 bet but vs him I'm not liking it all that much. What's odd though is that while he's a solid winning player, his pre-flop raise is like 6%. He limps a lot of hands like your AJs- which I have no idea why you limped, unless it was so you could LRR, but still, I like a raise.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
What is out of line about raising AK here? Hero's hand looks like a weak ace or KK.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, not raising AK here would be getting out of line haha.

[Nikla]

Hero's hand does indeed look like a scared pair of kings on flop and turn. When Hero 3-bets river it pretty much screams jacks, so for the villain to 4-bet here oozes strength.

[stoxtrader]

I did limp r/r pre-flop.

I called the river without really thinking about it. you would think i would know enough to take my time with decisions at a limit like this.

I didnt even realize it until after my session, but I'm pretty sure I missed a 3 bet.

Villain was theboss.

He showed AKs and MHIG.

only arguement for not three betting is thta he may be able to fold AK or AQ given my limp r/r, but i doubt that, and He can cap with AA/JJ/99 (all possible holdings at this limit even given he did not cap pre-flop).

I still think I missed a 3 bet for value on the river.

[Nikla]

I find I make these quick unreflected reflex type calls more if I play outside my comfortzone. You think this might have been a factor in this hand?

[ggbman]

I agree that you missed a 3 bet on the river, but the river isnt horrible considering he could have 99-jj-aa and fold hands you beat. I'm not sure about the limp-re raise against a good player, i think you want to see a cheap flop.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]

Villain was theboss.


[/ QUOTE ]

Of coruse.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
I find I make these quick unreflected reflex type calls more if I play outside my comfortzone. You think this might have been a factor in this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too dammit. I do it from time to time at my normal games too and I freaking hate it. Like yesterday I hit a gutter on the river and was first to act and like freaked out and checked instead of betting (very scary board with 1 card straight) and kicked myself for quite awhile...so stupid.

[Nikla]

Sounds very familiar. I do it too often aswell, I guess we're too eager to get to showdown and don't focus enough on extracting maximum value. Definitely something that needs work.

[stoxtrader]

for me it's also a functin of multi-tabling. I need to do a better job recognizing the important decisions and giving them extra time.

generally, I think the two of you, and myself, make a lot of correct quick decisions. But you always want to improve, and this was an expensive mistake on my part.

merits of limp r/r? fishy? lepton loved it.

[Nikla]

I really don't like the lrr, especially not against that particular player.. But I give you cred for mixing it up none the less.

[stoxtrader]

since you are implying it's player dependant, is the solution to just raise outright, or limp and then see who raises you b4 deciding to 3 bet?

and multiway make a difference vs HU. why or why not?

[Nikla]

I would raise outright. I'm not even sure if mixing it up and limp reraising with this particular hand serves all that much deception value.. For it to help you get more action on your real powerhands you'll have to get it to showdown afterall. And if you do get it to showdown vs a raiser you will frequently be outkicked, and if you're like me you have automuck on... Naturally the best scenario is if he gets stubborn with a pair and u connect..
I dunno man, I just don't like it.

[stoxtrader]

how do you play AA/KK/AKo/AKs? from UTG.

[Nikla]

I mix it up like I expect everyone does. Sometimes raising outright, sometimes going for the lrr.

[Schneids]

Your UTG limp would really scare me.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
for me it's also a functin of multi-tabling. I need to do a better job recognizing the important decisions and giving them extra time.

generally, I think the two of you, and myself, make a lot of correct quick decisions. But you always want to improve, and this was an expensive mistake on my part.

merits of limp r/r? fishy? lepton loved it.

[/ QUOTE ]

LRR is awesome because if the flop is rags you almost always get him off of better overcards.
-James

[SparkyDog]

I have a few questions for everyone.

1. Anyone think Villian should have just flat called the river?

From Villian's standpoint, Hero's play looks like either a big pocket pair (KK and AA in order of likelihood) or an ace/big kicker.

After Hero's post flop action, on the river he bets out. What hands is Hero concerned about the river getting checked through with? Villian wouldn't pay off without an ace on this board, so Hero betting out KK doesn't make any sense, as Villian will just call/raise him when beaten and fold when he doesn't have he ace. If Hero's betting an unlikely AA then Villian is just opening himself to a 3bet by raising, and will lose.

Hero could be betting AK/AQ to prevent the river being checked through when Villian has a high PP. But Hero should know that Villian would recognize this line and not always pay off with lesser hands, thus making it an unprofitable value bet for Hero to make.

So if Hero isn't valuebetting AQ (about the only conceivable hand that could bet this river, call a raise, and still lose) A LOT, then the river raise is unprofitable since a lot of times it's called it'll be a chop and sometimes Hero will three bet which puts Villian in a risk two win one situation, I think.

2. What about a river checkraise by Hero?

[Nikla]

I definitely see more merit lrr'ing if its a HU confrontation.. I still don't like it though..

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely see more merit lrr'ing if its a HU confrontation.. I still don't like it though..

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, I'd almost ALWAYS raise this here, but if I decided to limp, I think limp reraising HU is an interesting maneuver...but not when hero f's it up on the river /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-James

[jayheaps]

The only hand that you are really worried about here is JJ. If he had KK/QQ then the line maximizes your winnigns by allowing him to hang himself. It's one of though typical, way ahead or way behind situations.

For me the real question would be "would be bet QQ on the turn after being checked to on an ace-high board? Very read dependant." If he would, then i make make a move on the turn. Otherwise, I would have kept your line and reraised the river.

[peachy]

Id 3bet his raise...if he has it good for him...but i think ur ok...it looks more like an AK or AQ to me...i definately woulndt be worried about a 7 or 99, id be more worried about a JJ but this still wouldnt stop me from 3betting b/c he didnt cap preflop.....

but then again...im a tard /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sxz18]

Sorry, I play at 15/30 on PP and I'm curious about higher stakes strategy. Why LRR with AJh? What value does that have other than mixing it up?

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]

2. What about a river checkraise by Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

Naa. You want to get three bets into the pot here. The best way to do that is to bet out and hope he raises with AK/AQ.

-Diplomat

[mikelow]

three-bet. It looks like you sucked out against villian's AK or AQ. Though I'm folding to a four-bet--then he really has AA, JJ, or 77.

Possibly this would be easier if you had bet the flop. But once you check-call the flop, you have to do the same on the turn.

[Paluka]

So we've talked about the river a lot. Why did you play the other streets the way you did?

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Anyone think Villian should have just flat called the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Me. At Party 15/30, limp/reraise is almost always AA/KK, no idea at this limit.

[flub]

Lately when I think about a hand like this I think about how many bets I want to put in on a street. The river in this case. I'd want the river to go 2 bets but would feel ok with 3. If the river goes 4 bets I'm gonna have a sick feeling in my stomach.

It seems like he's gonna bet this river unless he's got a smallish pp. So I'd go for the checkraise. If he 3 bets it's an easy call (I wouldn't raise). While if he caps your 3 bet, bad bad news.

I may not be thinking about this the optimal way though. After all is the range of hands he'd 3 bet with here that different then the range he'd cap with? The only cards I can think of are AJ or possibly 99.

-flub

[stoxtrader]

Paluka -

I think leading either the flop or the turn simply let's a worse hand fold and a better hand raise almost 100% of the time.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Paluka -

I think leading either the flop or the turn simply let's a worse hand fold and a better hand raise almost 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I guess I'm just trying to figure outhow the preflop play works with the post flop play. Is the intention of the limp/reraise preflop simply to get a better hand to fold when you flop nothing?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Paluka -

I think leading either the flop or the turn simply let's a worse hand fold and a better hand raise almost 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I guess I'm just trying to figure outhow the preflop play works with the post flop play. Is the intention of the limp/reraise preflop simply to get a better hand to fold when you flop nothing?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes.

had an a/k not flopped, ak would be hard pressed to call if proper pressure was put on.

-Barron

[ErrantNight]

were you betting a river blank?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

hey stox,

as long as you mix up your limping/raising/lrr hands, i like it here.

the river you simply have to 3-bet. I would expect a tough player to raise AK or AQ here a vast majority of the time. If he has AA, or godforbid a 7, then so be it. the c-c-b line looks so much like a weak ace or KK that you might consider playing AA this way as well, anticipating this river action.

[imported_stealthcow]

i play absolutely nowhere near 200/400 but i'm confused by you limp re raising with a hand like AJs

was this player dependant or did you limp planning on re raising if raised by anyone else?

do you expect that you can make hands like AK and AQ fold later in the hand? i'd be too worried they just call down if they hit top pair.

thanks

stealthcow-

[Saborion]

Do you limp reraise here with 99? A9(s)? 7x? JJ?

If 99, would you call that flop bet with them?
If 99, would you call the flop and turn with them?

And would you ever bet/3-bet your AK on that river?

[nykenny]

what would u have done on the flop if it came K95r? or T95r? or KJ5r?

thx,

Kenny

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
the c-c-b line looks so much like a weak ace or KK that you might consider playing AA this way as well, anticipating this river action.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are one of several to say this looks like a weak A. Since when is this line when used after a limp RR used with a weak Ace?

I actually think the limp RR makes the river tougher to play. A tough player has to a least have some fear that hero has the hand represented.

[stoxtrader]

I do like to limp r/r with AA/KK becuase they have so much value and raises even from EP do often win the blinds outright (I should probably figure out statistically how often, but need a lot more hands). I am capable of doing the same with AK/AKs/AQs/AJs/99/88 also.

almost all flops I would lead, this particular flop I thought was interesting, so i played it the way I did.

it took me about 2 seconds to call the river - thinking, "since i limp r/r i am dead". but given a bit more thought, only hands he could have here that beat me are AA/JJ/TT and 99, all are possible, but only remotely so given card distribution and the action.

[Lestat]

I think the question is, how often would you expect your 3-bet to be paid off by a worse hand? Answer this, and you've got your answer. Your risking two to win one from a very tougher player, so it might be closer than it looks. But I think you'll find that you should 3-bet.

[J.A.Sucker]

This is a joke, right?

No way. No how. Not at these limits in a headsup pot.

I think you have to lead out the flop anyway. You often get more action when trying to "show strength" than not. If you're worried about getting too much action headsup, then playing AJs out of position for a limp-reraise shouldn't be high on your priority list.

[stoxtrader]

I disagree on the flop lead. why am I looking for "more action" with this flop?

I got exactly the right amount except for the river I think, short of not seeing a showdown.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
You are one of several to say this looks like a weak A. Since when is this line when used after a limp RR used with a weak Ace?

I actually think the limp RR makes the river tougher to play. A tough player has to a least have some fear that hero has the hand represented.

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact that stox went immediately into checkcall mode on the flop and turn would give some indication that stox doesn't have a strong hand as he nobody would have the nerve to not checkraise the turn with AA or AK imo.

[skp]

I don't really like the flop check either given your preflop LRR. It worked out okay given that the other guy had AK but normally, if you LRR and check on a A77 flop...I am going to give you credit for a huge mitt on all occasions when I don't have an Ace (and you don't want me to give you that credit if I have a hand like KK/QQ).

In other words, if I have KK or QQ, I lose a lot more if you bet the flop. If you check the flop, I might bet it with KK but I certainly wouldn't bet the turn.

[stoxtrader]

thanks for the reply skp, hopefully i would have a readon you as passive and adjust accordingly, but your point is valid. I didnt really mind a check behind on the turn. 1 bet only on the turn and river combined would be fine with me given this board. anymore and I am almost certainly behind without spiking my kicker.

[Schneids]

I hope you don't mind I'm putting it in here Stox, but since it's very similar to yours I think it's better served here than a new thread.


Very good 2+2er who I have a lot of history against limps in EP of a full table. I raise in MP with AsQs. Button calls. 2+2er 3-bets and we both call.

Flop Q33. 2+2er bets, I raise, button folds, 2+2er calls.

Turn 2. 2+2er checks, I check.

River Ace. 2+2er bets, I raise, 2+2er 3-bets. Is a 4-bet excessive or perfect?

[stoxtrader]

you suck.

and no i dont mind.

nice turn check.

[skp]

IMO, 4 betting is clearly excessive against most players.

The 2+2 'er is taking a risk in 3 betting with AK because he must be thinking that you probably wont 2 bet the river with AJ. At best, he can hope for a tie if he has AK. But he did 3 bet which means that he is either not too concerned with taking that risk or has a hand much better than AK. He could have AQ like you but I highly doubt he folds if you 4 bet.

So, I say you should just call against most players.

River raises are to respected even more than turn raises as there is little need for posturing by that point.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
River raises are to respected even more than turn raises as there is little need for posturing by that point.


[/ QUOTE ]

well said.
-Barron

[SparkyDog]

Why's the turn check so good? Induces action?