B&M 4-8

[cassady]

4/8 in the local B&M, around 2:30am...the table is loose, and very passive. Many unraised multiway preflops. UTG+1 is loose preflop, but good post flop, and has been hitting all kinds of cards. She has check-raised draws, but so far only on the flop. She's been playing since 4pm, and is up ~$600.

Hero is UTG, Ac10c. Calls. Many callers behind. Goes to flop 7 way without a raise.
Flop: Ah,10h,4h.
Hero bets, four callers.
Turn: 4s.
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, all others fold leaving it heads up.....

What to do?

[onegymrat]

Hi Cassady,

You presented one of the worse scenarios in hold'em. You definitely needed to bet the turn for that you wouldn't want any single hearts out there getting a flush for free and calling your river bet. The only other option up to that point was a checkraise on the flop if late position bets, which would doubtedly drive out any single small heart draws or the four. As for your action, unless you've perceived her to be tricky, call and check/fold the river. She has at least the four.

[cassady]

The reason I went with betting out instead of the c/r was this: the table was so passive, I'd seen nine players check the flop. Also, given there were already seven small bets in, even if everyone checked the the player ahead of me, he be, I raised, that'd still be 5:1 pot odds, making the flush draw worth it. Not that I think a lot of the people at that table were counting outs and pot odds.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
4/8 in the local B&M, around 2:30am...the table is loose, and very passive. Many unraised multiway preflops. UTG+1 is loose preflop, but good post flop, and has been hitting all kinds of cards. She has check-raised draws, but so far only on the flop. She's been playing since 4pm, and is up ~$600.

Hero is UTG, Ac10c. Calls. Many callers behind. Goes to flop 7 way without a raise.
Flop: Ah,10h,4h.
Hero bets, four callers.
Turn: 4s.
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, all others fold leaving it heads up.....

What to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call the fishy down and let him show you his Q4o.

[ghostwriter]

What about a raise pre-flop?
I think you call her raise and check call river.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

[quoteCall the fishy down and let him show you his Q4o.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, especially given your reads. Also try really hard to spike an A in her eye.

[onegymrat]

I think you've overlooked my point a bit. If they have the K, Q, J of hearts, they'll probably come along anyway. The check-raise is to drive out the stupid cards that occasionally catch up, like a four, a small heart or even some card that gives a set. You have the best hand right now, and should charge those who want to draw with two bets. If the check-raise attempt fails, so be it. In your position and the strong two pair, there is no better play with this crowd. Once the 4 showed on the turn, you are either really screwed or really lucky.

[cassady]

Well, I took the line that most of you suggested: called the raise, check-called the river. UTG+1 shows Jh5h. She flopped the flush.

In retrospect, (and not just because of the result), I think I should have folded it. Given that UTG+1 was pretty decent post flop, despite loose starting cards, the turn raise most likely meant something. She liked the suited cards, playing up to two gappers, so the made flush that existed was a good possibility. Trip fours were also a possibility. The only hand I could have beat is if she had a high heart, and was semi-bluffing. Even then, there's a significant chance that the heart would hit on the river, making it impossible to call a bet there to even go to the show down. All in all, I think a fold would have been a better option. Then again, hindsight is 20/20.

[bernie]

In hindsight you realize you are getting 9-1 on a 6 outer?

b

[Suntzu00000]

Its been my experience that bad-poker players really like to slowplay hands that are retarded. Calling the flop with a vulnerable made flush on the flop and then raising the turn seems to be a play right out of "Holdem Poker for Retarded Players." The point is that bad players love to wait till the turn to raise and its usually very obvious what they are playing once you see the pattern.

That being said its not a certainty that the fool has slowplayed in this situation. I think you have to call the turn raise, especially with a redraw to the nut full. Then check-fold the river if she bets. The pot should be giving you 10-1 on the river so if you have any feeling that she could be full of [censored] you could probably call her without taking the worst of it.

[cassady]

Actually, I'm getting 8.5 to 1 odds on a 4 outer, hence why I favour the fold. Whether she's on the trip fours or the more likely flush, the only cards I can see that will help me are the remaining two aces, and the remaining two tens. I'm not sure where your other two outs are coming from.

[cassady]

Actually, with the number of callers preflop, the pot odds would have been enough to justify a call by anyone with a king or queen of hearts even if she raised. I'm not sure she could have thinned the field with a raise on the flop.