Knowing when to laydown KK?

[BelfastTheCat]

The villian had shown a 20% VP$IP with preflop and flop aggression -- definetely TAG.

I obviously didnt put him on a 5X, 42 or 47 ... so the board looked pretty empty to me. I wasnt expecting his hand, i was scared of AA and would be happy to see QQ, figuring I had a 50/50 shot of being ahead at the end.

I think this may have been a beginner's mistake overplaying an Overpair? Or did I just get unlucky with the flop?

Perhaps I should have smooth called the Flop, hoping to play a smaller pot and not face the decision for all my chips on the end?

thank you for any comments.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG : (Villian)/ ($140.35)
UTG+1 ($88.55)
UTG+2 ($162.4)
MP1 ($101.7)
MP2 ($4.25)
MP3 ($151.95)
Hero ($115.5)
Button ($294.73)
SB ($20.8)
BB ($57)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG : (Villian)/ raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $9</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG : (Villian)/ calls $6.

Flop: ($19.50) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villian bets $6</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $20</font>, Villian calls $14.

Turn: ($59.50) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villian checks, Hero checks.

River: ($59.50) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villian bets $50, Hero calls $50.

Final Pot: $159.50

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Villian has Td Tc (full house, tens full of fives).
Hero has Kh Kc (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: Villian wins $59.50. </font>

[drdre2001mm]

Man I would have a really hard time getting away from the hand also. But when he bet $50 on a blank card I become a little nervous, however, I still make the losing call on the river.

[JimmyJazz1]

I bet on the turn and fold to a c/r. Otherwise, the hand is fine.

[RED FACE]

a couple things:
1)maybe you could've size raised the flop instead of 6 to 20. You're trying to find out if you're against AA still, right? Or maybe you are trying to make any potential flush draw pay?
2)I don't understand you're turn check behind him. River would be the time to check behind him though many folks acting first don't risk the check raise attempt anyway.

Him betting out could mean any op over T inc. AA or a flush draw or of course the less likely TT. I don't see you getting away from this given your opp tended to trap you by smooth calling your flop raise. He seems to play well. Not sure about his river bet.

BTW, if your flop raise was to chase out flushdraws it likely wasn't nearly large enough.

His flop bet-out is very tricky and good imo. Add note: "evil sob" and "fear his underbets" lol. If you had lots of data on him you could see his bet size:pot ratio habits.

[Los Feliz Slim]

I would have definitely bet the turn, although I'm not sure I'd be smart enough to get away from the check/push (and there are a lot of maroons out there playing A10 the same way he played his hand). But, you'd/I'd have a better chance of mucking there rather than on the river.

[Yeknom58]

I like the way you played this hand. You don't HAVE to bet this turn at all. If he's solid I doubt he has a flush draw so on the turn free cards don't really hurt you.

[sawseech]

you can immediately throw out any (x)5 variants here
he had something on the flop
if you don't believe he'd lead AA/QQ/JJ on the riv the kings must be released

it's really that simple

[xorbie]

Tight player raisers UTG, calls a re-raise and then leads out the flop? I'm thinking he has TT, JJ, QQ or AA. His calling your re-raise even though you very clearly have either AA or KK means you are probably in trouble. I think you have to bet out this turn here for about $25, in which case he folds JJ or QQ most likely, and if he leads the turn again you can lay this down.

[Yeknom58]

"I think you have to bet out this turn here for about $25, in which case he folds JJ or QQ most likely"

Why in the world would you want your opponent to fold QQ/JJ here?

[xorbie]

"Why in the world would you want your opponent to fold QQ/JJ here?"

Because the type of opponent who will fold QQ or JJ will also not be paying off on the river anyway, whereas TT or AA will call but then might check the river to induce a bluff, or just pot it and you can fold.

[sawseech]

that's bs, the turn chk is fine and the riv remains the ideal place to make a decision on this hand as hero is either way in front or way behind and doesn't want the pot that big anyways before he gets there given an unclear read

[BillUCF]

When villian called your flop bet that was the clue that your KK was no good. Why?
1. Villian was not scared of your prelfop raise.
2. Villian was not scared when you came over the top on your flop bet.
3. When 1 and 2 happen then any one pair hand is usually no good.

[xorbie]

Imagine you are villian here. You hold QQ, raised this flop and got re-raised. You're pretty sure hero has either KK or AA, but don't feel like laying this down. You check the turn, hero checks behind. If I were villian, this would be the perfect place for me to bluff the river, because hero has put himself in a position to fold.

I'm not saying that checking behind is necessarily worse, but an argument can be made for going the other way.

[sting]

I dont agree with this turn advice. By checking the turn, hero is inviting villain to take this pot away on the river with a big bet. In this case, villain has the goods, but by checking, hero has put himself into a difficult decision: Is it the nuts or is it a steal? If hero is willing to call 50 on the river, I say bet 30 or so on the turn. It is easy to fold to a reraise in that spot.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine you are villian here. You hold QQ, raised this flop and got re-raised. You're pretty sure hero has either KK or AA, but don't feel like laying this down. You check the turn, hero checks behind. If I were villian, this would be the perfect place for me to bluff the river, because hero has put himself in a position to fold.

I'm not saying that checking behind is necessarily worse, but an argument can be made for going the other way.

[/ QUOTE ]

when you check the turn it actually widens the range of hands that will bet the river into something that you will beat enough to call the bet. instead of folding out QQ or JJ (or ATs or JT, but probably not if this is a solid player), they now make a bet on the river and you win more money. it also keeps the pot from growing too big...

one thing to keep in mind, if you check the turn you have to call the river. showing that weakness means that all sorts of crap will bet into you.

if you really weren't confident that you had the best hand you could have bet the turn around $30 and saved yourself some money by folding to his almost certain check-raise.