2004 USPC final table [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Russ McGinley

03-26-2005, 09:59 PM

Jdags lost 1/3 his stack w/ TT v AA, then Hoyt Corkins moved all-in with a blind stealing hand of 87o, Jdags called immediately w/ TT and the flop came J-7-7, turn came another 7 giving Hoyd quads and leaving Jdags with one chip. He was dealt KK, Aglialoro dealt QQ, Schultz JJ, flop came Q-J-x.

jennicide

03-26-2005, 10:01 PM

Terrible loss for John, but he's definitely going to have better finishes as well as Joe.

AtlBrvs4Life

03-26-2005, 10:11 PM

John D. played horribly and did not deserve the win.

TightIsRight

03-26-2005, 10:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
John D. played horribly and did not deserve the win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good argument. Giving reasons is for pussies.

O71394658

03-26-2005, 10:34 PM

I'm sorry, but did anyone else think that the all in with 8-7o was the worst play ever?

Rushmore

03-26-2005, 11:07 PM

I am generally very tough on folks who act out in any way at the table. I find it vulgar, to be honest.

D'Agostino pushing over the chips to Corkins definitely fell into this category.

On the other hand, I'm giving him a pass, because it was so brutal to watch.

Think of it--you play for days, hoping someone makes the mistake that Corkins made (and it was a TERRIBLE mistake, seemingly very out of character for him), then you have to parlay this event by actually holding a hand.

Then...THAT happens? You could really lose your mind, seriously.

Kevmath

03-27-2005, 12:37 AM

Going from a $1m+ chip lead with 9 left to finishing 7th, with the beats he was getting, would make most rational people do the same thing.

Kevin...

Gbob

03-27-2005, 12:41 AM

Yeah. Going from the top to the bottom has to hurt...especially when you played right the whole way. Didn't like some of the table behavior, but given the lack of sleep and the stress that's understandable.

He seems to have the chops, that's for sure.

Russ McGinley

03-27-2005, 02:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am generally very tough on folks who act out in any way at the table. I find it vulgar, to be honest.

D'Agostino pushing over the chips to Corkins definitely fell into this category.

On the other hand, I'm giving him a pass, because it was so brutal to watch.

Think of it--you play for days, hoping someone makes the mistake that Corkins made (and it was a TERRIBLE mistake, seemingly very out of character for him), then you have to parlay this event by actually holding a hand.

Then...THAT happens? You could really lose your mind, seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. It did also appear that Hoyt asked Jdags to push him the chips. I probably would have done the same thing.

TheJackal

03-27-2005, 02:19 AM

I don't think he acted too badly given what happened. I've seen worse at a 3-6 or 4-8 game, and this event was for a million dollar first place. Maybe he was a little out of line, but wasn't even close to a Hellmuth blowup (I imagine if he took the beats Jdags took, he would have flipped over the table, or at least dropped about 50 f-bombs before exiting.)

goodFlop

03-27-2005, 02:23 AM

How was JDags out of line at all? He didn't berate anyone, not even Hoyte who made the stupidest mistake ever. From what I recall of the telecast, JDags simply looked shocked at his misfortune ...

goodFlop

03-27-2005, 02:25 AM

A Hellmuth blow up definitely would have been hilarious and expected, especially given teh history between Hoyte and Hellmuth at previous WPT event I forget which one. Anyone can help here?

(Hellmuth was getting owned by Hoyte and upon his exit told Hoyte "I can't wait to get you next time Hoyte")

TightIsRight

03-27-2005, 02:30 AM

All he did was simply push his chips over. I would have probably done a lot worse. Considering the situation, I think he reacted fairly reasonably.

Of course, according to Norman Chad he was "out of line"...

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt
"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

Tyler Durden

03-27-2005, 02:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but did anyone else think that the all in with 8-7o was the worst play ever?

[/ QUOTE ]

What positions were they in, what was the exact preflop action? How big were the blinds and the size of the raise? I didn't have the volume turned up. thanks.

Rushmore

03-27-2005, 02:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Going from a $1m+ chip lead with 9 left to finishing 7th, with the beats he was getting, would make most rational people do the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I genuinely felt bad for the guy. I mean, D'Agostino looked closer to a nervous breakdown than anyone I've ever seen playing poker on television.

And he would have been perfectly justified in having one.

balt999

03-27-2005, 02:44 AM

That dude had some horrific luck, can't blame for being pissed off..can't believe he was as composed as he was.

balt999 journal about poker and life...check it out (http://www.livejournal.com/users/balt999/)

Rushmore

03-27-2005, 02:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What positions were they in, what was the exact preflop action? How big were the blinds and the size of the raise? I didn't have the volume turned up. thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man.

It was folded around to Corkins in the SB. They each had somewhere around 650K. It was so close, in fact, that D'Agostino had ONE CHIP left after he took the beat.

Not sure of the blinds/antes because they don't really tell you very often. But they couldn't have been TOO high, because the two of them were still in 2nd and 3rd chip positions and I know it hadn't gotten to a bad point yet.

There was no earthly reason for Corkins to push there. It was just plain weird, I thought.

Tyler Durden

03-27-2005, 02:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A Hellmuth blow up definitely would have been hilarious and expected, especially given teh history between Hoyte and Hellmuth at previous WPT event I forget which one. Anyone can help here?

(Hellmuth was getting owned by Hoyte and upon his exit told Hoyte "I can't wait to get you next time Hoyte")

[/ QUOTE ]

It was the World Poker Finals at Foxwoods. Great episode, esp. that hand where Hoyt hit running sevens vs. Hellmuth.

goodFlop

03-27-2005, 03:05 AM

Yes thanks Tyler -- that was the episode. Very entertaining stuff between the "big boys" (Helmuth vs Corkins). I was rooting for Muhammed in the heads-up vs Corkins -- too bad Muhammed folded his two pair Corkins bluff flush draw (I believe).

On another note, from the USPC Interview of Hoyte, I am inferring that Hoyte has been badly broke from poker before (he said something like learning from his past mistake). It's uncanny how a soft spoken guy like him has such an aggressive style, and is apparently a devout Christian southerner.

lighterjobs

03-27-2005, 03:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Going from a $1m+ chip lead with 9 left to finishing 7th, with the beats he was getting, would make most rational people do the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I genuinely felt bad for the guy. I mean, D'Agostino looked closer to a nervous breakdown than anyone I've ever seen playing poker on television.

And he would have been perfectly justified in having one.

[/ QUOTE ]

It definately looked like he was going to cry. I would have cried too. Having 1.5m and your closest opponent has 500k going into the final table and losing to Hoyt the way he did. Definately a tough loss. the next hand when his KK got cracked by QQ and JJ was just sick. I mean, he definately wasn't going to come back and win it, but that hand had to just make his day that much worse.

lighterjobs

03-27-2005, 04:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]

On another note, from the USPC Interview of Hoyte, I am inferring that Hoyte has been badly broke from poker before (he said something like learning from his past mistake).

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember seeing something about how Hoyt played the tournament circuit full time over ten years ago and then just disappeared. I'm guessing he went broke, but got back into tournament poker.

willie

03-27-2005, 11:23 AM

i don't know what i would have done if i was jdags.....if what he did was out of line, then i probably would have been hauled to the insane asylum or barred from TV like 2 live crew or somethin. I don't think anybody listed the hand where he had aces cracked by the semibluffing J5 on a k44 board w/ 2 diamonds...

i would have flipped out...gods honest truth. That was unbearable to watch

--Corkins push there was definitely insane. it makes very little sense to me since the only hand that is callin him is one that has him beat by a mile, and there isn't that much of an upside to the play.

but i do like jdags bluff w/ the Aces on board against hollander. I've made the same call that hollander has in that situation.....and looked at 3 aces a few times /images/graemlins/grin.gif

wjmooner

03-27-2005, 04:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Think of it--you play for days, hoping someone makes the mistake that Corkins made (and it was a TERRIBLE mistake, seemingly very out of character for him), then you have to parlay this event by actually holding a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Phil Hellmuth said that Hoyt pushed all in on him dozens of times at their WPT final table. I'm certain he was chip leader there, but it isn't like the players at that final table were insanely short stacked.

I don't know how you can say this is "out of character" for Corkins, this seems to be a play he does all the time, risking a huge amount of chips for the blinds.

WJ

Tyler Durden

03-27-2005, 05:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What positions were they in, what was the exact preflop action? How big were the blinds and the size of the raise? I didn't have the volume turned up. thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man.

It was folded around to Corkins in the SB. They each had somewhere around 650K. It was so close, in fact, that D'Agostino had ONE CHIP left after he took the beat.

Not sure of the blinds/antes because they don't really tell you very often. But they couldn't have been TOO high, because the two of them were still in 2nd and 3rd chip positions and I know it hadn't gotten to a bad point yet.

There was no earthly reason for Corkins to push there. It was just plain weird, I thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay thanks much. I didn't realize it was a battle of the blinds. That is pretty horrid.

Rushmore

03-28-2005, 12:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how you can say this is "out of character" for Corkins, this seems to be a play he does all the time, risking a huge amount of chips for the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, in this tournament in particular, he had been playing fairly tight.

At least in the hands that got shown.

mhcmarty

03-28-2005, 12:28 PM

I think jdags could have found a better situation to push his chips in. The situation didn't allow for him to re-raise and push out a blind steal. He was calling for his life with an equal stack. How much of his stack had he already lost for him to be equal with Hoyt at that time???

Was he steaming???

With the editing they do, and the small number of hands shown you could see exactly what was going to happen when he called. I was screaming for him to fold.

mojorisin24

03-28-2005, 12:34 PM

What exactly happened behavior-wise with D'Agostino?

Stosh

03-28-2005, 12:35 PM

I've seen all of the '04 USPC episodes until they played down to 18. I must have missed the episode you guys are referring to. When will this ep air again? 'Stosh

mhcmarty

03-28-2005, 12:39 PM

Evidentially Hoyt asked jdags to "push" him the stacked chips. jdgas did just that, he puched the stacks over and kind of shoved them towards Hoyt. I think the announcers over did the commentary. It was close to the line but he didn't go over it (IMHO).

Rushmore

03-28-2005, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With the editing they do, and the small number of hands shown you could see exactly what was going to happen when he called. I was screaming for him to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You were screaming for him to fold a 5:1 favorite?

What am I missing here?

Kevmath

03-28-2005, 12:47 PM

They're airing episodes again today and tomorrow on ESPN2 starting from 12 noon.

Kevin...

mhcmarty

03-28-2005, 12:49 PM

Since it was the final table, they would have shown the hand either way. My point is that you can see some of this coming just because it made it through editing.

Kevmath

03-28-2005, 12:51 PM

Also, there seemed to be a dispute over how many chips he had, because it did take quite a while to get it straightened out.

Kevin...

willie

03-28-2005, 01:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With the editing they do, and the small number of hands shown you could see exactly what was going to happen when he called. I was screaming for him to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You were screaming for him to fold a 5:1 favorite?

What am I missing here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't get it either...TT in the BB against an overaggressive corkins. just gotta go with it. If he had folded this place would have exploded. He made the right play and got RAAAAAPED.

lighterjobs

03-28-2005, 01:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Evidentially Hoyt asked jdags to "push" him the stacked chips. jdgas did just that, he puched the stacks over and kind of shoved them towards Hoyt. I think the announcers over did the commentary. It was close to the line but he didn't go over it (IMHO).

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, i think he was a little out of line by shoving the chips to hoyt, but at least he didn't berade him ala Phil Hellmuth. I couldn't imagine what would be said if phil was sitting in john's seat.

wray

03-28-2005, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Evidentially Hoyt asked jdags to "push" him the stacked chips. jdgas did just that, he puched the stacks over and kind of shoved them towards Hoyt. I think the announcers over did the commentary. It was close to the line but he didn't go over it (IMHO).

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly....and as soon as it happened I was thinking how Norman Chad was going to exploit it.

slickpoppa

03-28-2005, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, i think he was a little out of line by shoving the chips to hoyt, but at least he didn't berade him ala Phil Hellmuth. I couldn't imagine what would be said if phil was sitting in john's seat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that would be entertaining to watch

flair1239

03-28-2005, 02:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, there seemed to be a dispute over how many chips he had, because it did take quite a while to get it straightened out.

Kevin...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what pushed Jdags over the edge is Corkins, made him count down like three times.

Jdags counted down twice without reaction, and then the last time became agitated.

I personally thought Corkins was being kind of an ass and instigated the situation a bit.

trying2learn

03-28-2005, 02:36 PM

am i the only one who thinks corkins has come off as rude before as well? asking for dags to push the stack to him after that beat is flat out bush league...he knows he's getting the chips.

wray

03-28-2005, 02:51 PM

Temp Hutter

03-28-2005, 03:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
am i the only one who thinks corkins has come off as rude before as well? asking for dags to push the stack to him after that beat is flat out bush league...he knows he's getting the chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

John's chips were directly in front of him. I would have found it rude to have a player reach over and start grabbing chips that are directly in front of me without asking first or giving me the opportunity to slide them over. What I thought was "bush league" was making Hoyt re-stack the chips because of the way John shoved them over. I like John and he had taken the "beats" very well up to that point. I was sorry to see him show the frustration at the end.

trying2learn

03-28-2005, 03:29 PM

i don't know...such a fine line and it all comes down to interpretation. give jdags an extra 30 sec to a min and he'll push his chips over to hoyt. if hoyt doesn't ask, then he doesn't have to re-stack them, that was the way i saw it.

mhcmarty

03-28-2005, 03:38 PM

Does anybody have any reaction to John helping himself to another players chips to make a count???

They edited version didn't show John asking, but he reached over to the chips of the player to his left and picked up misc. chips on top of the pile and counted them himself.

Not that this was rude, but I would have been uncomfortable with it.

Rushmore

03-28-2005, 04:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since it was the final table, they would have shown the hand either way. My point is that you can see some of this coming just because it made it through editing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you were saying.

Man, you gotta learn to suspend your disbelief if you're gonna try to enjoy these things.

At least I get your point now, though. I was a little worried about you for a second there.

AceFace

03-28-2005, 07:32 PM

Great Teddy Roosevelt quote! /images/graemlins/club.gif

srblan

03-29-2005, 06:28 PM

Agreed. In fact, I think Norman (though I usually try to tune him out) made the correct observation that Hoyt could have made a steal with a much smaller raise.

SoCalPat

04-02-2005, 04:56 AM

At the start of the final table, I really wanted to see D'Agostino get taken down. Who's this 21-year-old punk seeing such huge success so quickly, my middle-aged poker-stagnating butt is thinking to myself.

But how he went out, I couldn't help but feel bad for him. Just an incredible run of bad luck (minus the KQd vs. QQ hand of Hollander). The final hand was the absolute cropper. Sure, he had no chance of coming back, but if salt in the wound was ever applied, it was here.

My anger, tempered as it is, seeing I like him so much, is reserved for Norman Chad. Didn't anyone else see the two-facedness of Chad saying on the Q77 flop of "I'm surprised D'Agostino isn't kicking over his chair" ... to chastising his actions when he pushed the chips over to Corkins?

One minute, he's sympathetic to his plight, and expects him to act out on it. Then, after he does, he switches gears and talks about how bad of a sport he was, or words to that effect.

As for myself, I've already set a rule that if I ever make it to a TV table, to hold back on any outbursts while on camera. That said, if I went out like that, I couldn't guarantee the safety of my hotel room furniture, or any stray dogs that might cross my path.

IgorSmiles

04-02-2005, 04:39 PM

From what I saw, Dags just had a meltdown. I didnt see or hear Hoyt do anything out of line. Norm and Lon may have been talking over it but afterwards Hoyt was saying "Tough beat" or something to Dags. So I cant see blaming Hoyt here, unless I missed something. Give Dags a pass if you want, it was a tough run of cards, but he did seem to lose it.

KDawgCometh

04-02-2005, 09:30 PM

I don't think he was mad at Hoyt at all, he seemed more mad at the tournament directors that kept on making him count out his chips like 20 times after he counted them out after a rough beat

3rdEye

04-03-2005, 02:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What positions were they in, what was the exact preflop action? How big were the blinds and the size of the raise? I didn't have the volume turned up. thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man.

It was folded around to Corkins in the SB. They each had somewhere around 650K. It was so close, in fact, that D'Agostino had ONE CHIP left after he took the beat.

Not sure of the blinds/antes because they don't really tell you very often. But they couldn't have been TOO high, because the two of them were still in 2nd and 3rd chip positions and I know it hadn't gotten to a bad point yet.

There was no earthly reason for Corkins to push there. It was just plain weird, I thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay thanks much. I didn't realize it was a battle of the blinds. That is pretty horrid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say it's even worse, considering that Hoyt (I assume) is known to be a hyper-aggro player. A 4-5x BB raise would seem to accomplish the goal of stealing jdags' blind, without risking his whole stack should he run into a big stack. Granted, pushing eliminates the possibility of a resteal, but are you really sweating a resteal bluff when you're stealing with 87o?