Preflop

[Danenania]

An okay (30/15/1.5) button open raises and a loose aggro (40/20/3) SB 3-bets. You are in the BB. What are you doing here with
A.) QJs
B.) ATo
C.) A8s
D.) 22-66
E.) KJo
F.) KTs

[tolbiny]

If this is the first time it happens, i fold all.

If it looks like its becoming a pattern i start capping the At0 KTs and QJs.

[Isura]

Rank beginner here, please put me in line if this is brutally wrong.

1) Cap - Button's raising hands are pretty wide here, and he fact that I'm suited somewhat alleviates being dominated, and I'm pretty sure I have over 40% equity with the LAG in the SB.

2) Fold
3) Fold
4) Call - This is probably wrong, but I think I have decent implied odds with a LAG in the hand.
5) Fold - Dominated facing 2 cold, and out of position somewhat.
6) Cap - Same reasoning as 1).

[brettbrettr]

Yeah, I fold all of these too.

[DrGutshot]

All of them into the muck.

-DrG

[mperich]

I cap ATo and get rid of the rest.

-Mike

[wuarhg]

[ QUOTE ]
All of them into the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Danenania]

Interesting... Clarkmeister said in a post awhile back (in Mid/High) that he never folds a pair in this situation. I was thinking based on the fairly wide range of hands these guys could have some of the other hands might become playable as well. I actually called a few hands ago in this spot with QJs but it felt pretty weird.

[PassiveCaller]

It's going to vary on how frequent this has become an occurence for most of them with a strong lean towards fold until it becomes a pattern, but I wouldn't ever fold a pair here.

[Victor]

i never ever fold a pair here either. with the lag you should get some action if you hit.

[TStoneMBD]

id call with the pairs. probably cap ATo, and fold the rest. unless its been a pattern that SB is maniacally 3betting the button i dont think that the other hands are very good to get involved with.

[RunDownHouse]

This seems very backwards. You're advocating capping with weak broadways and folding strong aces. I'd pretty much reverse that and be more inclined to cap with ATo and fold QJs.

Of course, I'd likely fold ATo as well, and if there was a limper or two I'd call hands like QJs, but with no reads, no limpers, a button raise, and a SB 3bet, I'd cap ATo way before QJs.

[ISF]

I would call with all pps and fold the rest. Your getting about 4.5-1 immediate odds and will get a ton of action if you hit a set.

[DrGutshot]

Revised: All but the pairs into the muck.

-DrG

[sthief09]

I'd call with ATo and 22-66 (I'd cap with 88). I'd fold the rest.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is the first time it happens, i fold all.

If it looks like its becoming a pattern i start capping the At0 KTs and QJs.

[/ QUOTE ]


3-handed and capping, I'd rather KJo than KTs or QJs. in a big pot domination isn't as important as suitedness. in a small pot, if you're dominated, you're prety screwed. QJs and KTs are probably dominated

[sthief09]

I don't much like calling with QJs. if you think about your typical button raising and sb 3-betting standards, QJs is probably in bad shape. even though the 40/20 is probably stupid and more wreckless in that spot, QJs still feels pretty crappy to me. AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ all have you dominated and you'll be seeing those hands a LOT. pocket pairs are going to make it expensive to see the turn if you miss, and it would be a dubious peel on most flops even for 1 bet getting 11-1. the only way I'd call is if I felt like the SB would 3-bet most pairs but not mediocre big cards like KJ and KQ.

[Nikla]

I fold all.

[Michael Davis]

I'm surprised people are playing AT here.

-Michael

[Victor]

i really think its funny that ppl are debating this. a10 is a terrible call (or cap). qjs is better but still bad.

its all about the pps.

[Victor]

hi sthief

i am glad ur back. capping with 88 is bad kinda bad. its good intially and in a preflop equity contest.

but with 3 players stategery and pot manip is improtant.

i think the best line is to call pfand raise flop on an innocous board (any board wo a or k)

[ProfLupin]

[ QUOTE ]

its all about the pps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you elaborate why you like the low pairs in this situation? Best case scenario is you're up against 3 over cards against you, and much more likely 4. Worst case, you're up against a higher pocket and two overs. The button isn't likely to fold in normal games even if you cap, so you're going to see the flop 3 handed, also not good news for these low pairs.

I agree, you will get mucho action if you hit your set, but I'm inclined to fold the low pairs here.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

its all about the pps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you elaborate why you like the low pairs in this situation? Best case scenario is you're up against 3 over cards against you, and much more likely 4. Worst case, you're up against a higher pocket and two overs. The button isn't likely to fold in normal games even if you cap, so you're going to see the flop 3 handed, also not good news for these low pairs.

I agree, you will get mucho action if you hit your set, but I'm inclined to fold the low pairs here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am also curious about this, while these are the only hands I'd play out of the group (with the exception of maybe A8s), You are getting 3.5-1 immediate odds, Basically you have to hit your set to win, im hung over and no good at this anyway, but given calling 2 cold, youve got alot of bets to make up post flop...and unless the Button hits, you get zero action from him, because his steal attempt got 3 bet and called and unless he was stealing with a real hand (not likely hand probabilty wise) even if he hits something he prolly just calls down.

ugh....im gunna puke and shower

[MrBig30]

I would also fold all these. And I am curious too about how some good players figure the PP´s to be bad folds. Although some say the opposite so I suspect it might be a marginal decision. Maybe it depends on the buttons steal-raising standards and the SB´s LAG-yness.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
i really think its funny that ppl are debating this. a10 is a terrible call (or cap). qjs is better but still bad.

its all about the pps.

[/ QUOTE ]


how is QJs better than ATo 3-handed? QJs is dominated like 80% of the time.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
hi sthief

i am glad ur back. capping with 88 is bad kinda bad. its good intially and in a preflop equity contest.

but with 3 players stategery and pot manip is improtant.

i think the best line is to call pfand raise flop on an innocous board (any board wo a or k)

[/ QUOTE ]


well, using the EM logic, 99 is an easy cap IMO and 77 is an easy call, so capping 88 can't be "bad." also, there's not much difference between capping or calling in this spot. it's nice to see whether button caps, but a 30/15 might occasionally fold a hand like JTo or QJo that has 2 clean overs. also, if you have a ncie equity edge, it would be tough for you to lose out on so much postflop by capping that it now becomes a bad move. it may not be best, but it's not bad. it's a hell of a lot better than folding

[sthief09]

Against a range of:
Button: 29.6785 % { AA-44, AKs-A2s, KQs-K7s, QJs-Q8s, JTs-J8s, T9s-T8s, 98s-97s, 87s, 76s, 65s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q9o, JTo, T9o }
SB: 38.5317 % { AA-44, AKs-A5s, KQs-KTs, QJs, AKo-A7o, KQo-KTo }

suggestions for the above?

1. QJs- 32%
2. ATo- 32.4%
3. A8s- 30.1%
4. 66- 33.5%
5. 22- 28%
6. KJo- 29.2%
7. KTs- 30.8%
8. 88- 37.7% (too good to not cap IMO)

obviously this isn't everything. important factors are being able to get to the river via having outs. if you whiff with KJo, it might be hard to continue. with KTs, backdoor flush outs can let you peel, whereas you'd have to fold the unsuited version. making the nuts is important. again the suited hands, and now pocket pairs are useful for this. being confident in your hand is important. flopping a Q with QJs is tough to play, but making a flush with QJs will let you play confidently. This is why all pairs are playable. they have potential to flop a huge hand. I didn't realize how good QJs was in this situation.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

I agree, you will get mucho action if you hit your set


[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds good.

[ QUOTE ]

but I'm inclined to fold the low pairs here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. That doesn't sound so good.

If you're confident of a lot of action if you hit your set, why do you want to fold?


Guy.

[TStoneMBD]

i agree strongly with capping 88.

heres why;

you arent losing equity preflop as shown by your studies.
your hand plays better in a capped pot. you have taken the role of the aggressor. postflop, if you fire and are shown strength, its easier for you to get away from the hand then if you had just coldcalled. people expect you to make it to the showdown after showing so much strength preflop, so they are more likely to slowdown.

if anybody is going to argue that you are cutting down on your implied odds for hitting a set, you are wrong. dont get me started on this again please.

[Danenania]

I would cap 88 too but I get where the other guys are coming from. It's nice to be able to isolate the lag SB on any Aceless flop. But the thing is I think there's a good chance that SB will lead any flop even if I cap, so often I will be able to both push my equity and still get the relative position advantage of having SB lead out.

Sthief, I think your range of hands for SB in particular is too narrow. I'd say he is capable of 3-betting most of the hands that button would open with minus some of the lesser suited connectors and gappers. Also I think they could both have 22 or 33.

[Clarkmeister]

I'm folding none of these.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm folding none of these.

[/ QUOTE ]


owned! all of us

[Clarkmeister]

eh, I don't know that I'm right, I just know that I'd feel pretty dang comfy playing all those hands there, though the QJs is likely somewhat close. I can't fathom why many of you would be folding AT there, that's a monster in that situation.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
important factors are being able to get to the river via having outs. if you whiff with KJo, it might be hard to continue. with KTs, backdoor flush outs can let you peel, whereas you'd have to fold the unsuited version.

[/ QUOTE ]
It helps to think about this issue in terms of expected value of the flop.

The EV of the flop is:

(<Final Pot Size> * <Probability of Winning>) - <Postflop Costs>

A flop that needs to be folded has EV=0. The EV of a flop can never be negative.

Playing preflop is good if the average expected value of the flop is greater than your preflop payment. So if you call two bets cold you need a flop that is worth at least 2 SB on average.

You have drawn a distinction between flops that are completely worthless (KJo whiffs) and flops that are *almost* worthless (KTs whiffs with a backdoor). Anytime you barely have odds to peel a card, your hand is almost worthless.

The difference between a worthless flop and an almost worthless flop barely matters in determining whether your preflop call was a good investment. Drawing a card with KTs because of the backdoor draw may allow you to win a few more pots, but those pots will add very little to your profits.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
eh, I don't know that I'm right, I just know that I'd feel pretty dang comfy playing all those hands there, though the QJs is likely somewhat close. I can't fathom why many of you would be folding AT there, that's a monster in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a very useful comment. Whether you choose to play a certain hand will always depend on the opponents and may often be a borderline decision that doesn't matter very much. But understanding what different hands are worth is extremely important. It's obvious from the discussion that the posters do not have a consensus that (e.g.) ATo > QJs. Not understanding fundamentals makes good judgment impossible.

Could you rank Danenania's hands (QJs, ATo, A8s, 66-22, KJo, and KTs) in order of value in this situation?

Thanks in advance.

[Isura]

I agree. I'm new to SH and still lack judgement on these plays. In loose full ring games I usually feel more comfortable cold-calling QJs with other callers rather than ATo. Is it that good high card value is more important than decent high card and good flush/straight value in this spot?

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
eh, I don't know that I'm right, I just know that I'd feel pretty dang comfy playing all those hands there, though the QJs is likely somewhat close. I can't fathom why many of you would be folding AT there, that's a monster in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it about these hands that make you feel comfy about putting two bets in here in this spot?

For example, is it wrong to compare equity percentage to pot odds here? What really should be the most important thing to consider?

I mean if we consider 30% equity vs likely 3.5 to 1 pot odds... it is a must play. I know this on the one hand, but on the other hand this doesn't make a lot of sense to measure up the situation this way.

[stir]

yes. In general you need to give high card value more emphasis in shorthanded, than you would give in the full games you are used to.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you rank Danenania's hands (QJs, ATo, A8s, 66-22, KJo, and KTs) in order of value in this situation?


[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you can rank these hands in relative strength in this sitution, you still may not know if ANY or ALL of them are worth playing here.

What's the best way to decide how to proceed/ what tools to use. Is it more experience/art or more math such equity % vs pot odds? Or consider both and basically it shouldnt matter much in this close a decision.

Anyone?

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
eh, I don't know that I'm right, I just know that I'd feel pretty dang comfy playing all those hands there, though the QJs is likely somewhat close. I can't fathom why many of you would be folding AT there, that's a monster in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people don't play half as well as you post flop though Clark. That may very well turn some of your playable hands to folds for other players.

FWIW, I cap ATo there.