5-10 AA hand

[Victor]

villain in this hand is pretty tight and reasonable. he is probably one of you guys.

what do you think the best line is here all around?


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero checks.

River: (5.70 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>,
Final Pot: 7.70 BB

[krishanleong]

No many people like it, but I call the flop and pop a non-heart turn. If a heart falls, I call down from the turn on, bet if checked to.

Krishan

[Victor]

I really want to put money in the pot on the flop as I am ahead by alot even if he has heart. Also, on the flop he is more likely to give me excessive action with a pair+ draw or top pair.

also, by raising the turn he might fold an ace that he otherwise would have called down.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I really want to put money in the pot on the flop as I am ahead by alot even if he has heart. Also, on the flop he is more likely to give me excessive action with a pair+ draw or top pair.

also, by raising the turn he might fold an ace that he otherwise would have called down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I factor the flush draw in much more heavily. On a 4-flush board normal play takes a bit of a backseat.

Here is the thinking behind my strategy.

1. If he has a heart, he's not folding.
2. If he doesn't have a heart he's bluffing.

1 means if you raise a non-heart turn, your going to charge him more for his draw. It also allows you to get to showdown cheaper if a 4th heart hits. I think allowing him to release a weak hand is a minor concern.

2 means he's bluffing at the flop. When you call, it's reasonable to think you don't have a heart. That means he'll likely keep bluffing if a 4th heart comes and you'll make more money than you would if you raised and a 4th heart comes. (This is your hand)

2 also means he'll fold to a raise on the turn. But you still get 1.5 BB when a heart doesn't fall on the turn. You only get .5-1 BB when you raise the flop and he calls and folds the turn, or folds to the flop raise.

Truthfully I haven't every convinced anyone that I think is a great poker player that my ideas on 3-flush boards with 2-pair or better hands have any merit. But theoretically it makes a lot of sense to me.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, on the flop he is more likely to give me excessive action with a pair+ draw or top pair.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not so sure about this. Maybe with the higher agression factors. At 2/4 which is a much more passive game, I'm positive raising the turn would charge a pair + a flush draw the max because they wouldn't 3-bet the flop with a worse hand. At these levels I can see being 3-bet by worse hands I guess.
Krishan

[tac252]

i'm not really sure here, so i may be wrong, but raising the turn to get out an ace that would have called you down seems wrong. If he was planning on calling down with his ace you lose a bet and if he has a reasonable flush you can't bet him out and you lose an extra bet. Thus making raising the turn a bad play.

tom

[krishanleong]

I'm going to go to the mat on this one guys. If I can't convince anyone here, than I am going to stop doing it because it must be wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
if he has a reasonable flush you can't bet him out and you lose an extra bet

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't raise the turn when the 4th flush comes. You only raise a non-flush card. My line calls down here. Bet if checked to.

Krishan

[Danenania]

The problem with this is you are giving all non-heart hands a free chance to draw to a split on the river. For this reason I would probably bet the turn since you still have 10 outs if he checkraises (and you can easily fold the river if you don't improve).

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with this is you are giving all non-heart hands a free chance to draw to a split on the river. For this reason I would probably bet the turn since you still have 10 outs if he checkraises (and you can easily fold the river if you don't improve).

[/ QUOTE ]

that is a good way to look at it.

but he will always checkraise here with the goods and often fold hands that you beat and are drawing dead.

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with this is you are giving all non-heart hands a free chance to draw to a split on the river. For this reason I would probably bet the turn since you still have 10 outs if he checkraises (and you can easily fold the river if you don't improve).

[/ QUOTE ]

that is a good way to look at it.

but he will always checkraise here with the goods and often fold hands that you beat and are drawing dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

The trouble with your logic is that none of his hands are truly drawing dead. At worst he has 9 outs to a split.

[ArturiusX]

If we get check-raised, we call, then get bet into on the river, can we lay this down?

[jayheaps]

i dont like the river bet. He could very easily have checked a low heart on the turn and try to induce a bluff.
I dont see any hand he could have that pays off a river bet

[Victor]

ok, you convinced me. a turn bet is def best.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont see any hand he could have that pays off a river bet

[/ QUOTE ]

he pays off this river with many hands. probably any pair of aces or queens.