after the turn raise...?

[mlb3zr]

This was my second hand at the table, so no read on villain yet. I hate the board to begin with, and even more after he raises my turn bet. Without a read, I feel like I have to slow down here and call the turn, then check/call the river. What do you think?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 (poster) checks, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (11 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero...

[David04]

[ QUOTE ]
Without a read, I feel like I have to slow down here and call the turn, then check/call the river.


[/ QUOTE ]
I like this line. Why does the turn raise worry you any more than the flop cap?

[detruncate]

What range of hands do we put Villain on?

[GrunchCan]

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What range of hands do we put Villain on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Group 1 hands.

[mlb3zr]

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does the turn raise worry you any more than the flop cap?

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. I think because I feel like people tend to slow down on the turn without a made hand. HU, I felt like he could have played AK, AQ, or KQs that way on the flop. But I thought when the turn missed him, he would slow down with those hands. So when he raised the turn, I felt like I had to put him on AA, QQ, JJ, or maybe ATs or JTs (hard to know without the read). A remote chance of the other KK or TT too. Since I only beat QQ, I felt like it was time to back off. Is that reasonable thinking here, or do you think he might have pushed HU with his overcards or KQ OESD?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Without a read, I feel like I have to slow down here and call the turn, then check/call the river. What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect. I'd be tempted to check-call the turn but I think that would be too weak.

Krishan

PS, check your messages

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What range of hands do we put Villain on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Group 1 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I was hoping the OP or first responder would chime in.

Let's call it (TT)JJ-AA, AK.

(1x TT)
2x JJ
6x QQ
1x KK
6x AA
8x AK

We're behind to 8 or 9, ahead of 14, spliting with 1.

What does his flop raise tell us? Would he do this with AK? It changes the picture in a hurry if the answer is no. If yes, defense against a free card play has to be part of our plan.

So... what do we think everyone?

[wax311]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]
Why does the turn raise worry you any more than the flop cap?

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. I think because I feel like people tend to slow down on the turn without a made hand. HU, I felt like he could have played AK, AQ, or KQs that way on the flop. But I thought when the turn missed him, he would slow down with those hands. So when he raised the turn, I felt like I had to put him on AA, QQ, JJ, or maybe ATs or JTs (hard to know without the read). A remote chance of the other KK or TT too. Since I only beat QQ, I felt like it was time to back off. Is that reasonable thinking here, or do you think he might have pushed HU with his overcards or KQ OESD?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people won't 3-bet preflop with hands like AT, JT, and KQ suited or not. Standard 3-betting hands are AA-TT, AKs/o and maybe AQs. He might have thrown in a bet or raise on the flop with AK, but he would not continue betting the turn. You're right to suspect AA-TT by the turn, and I think you shoudl definately slow down. You're way behind or drawing dead to AA, JJ, and TT and you're only beating QQ of those hands. I'd just slow down and check-call to a showdown.

If he's a nut and would 3-bet some questionable hands preflop, you might be behind to something like AT. So even if he 3-bets non-premiums preflop, it's wise to slow down anyways.

[btspider]

i'm not a fan of the turn bet. we're hoping for QQ or a gonzo AK.. both which may bet the turn anyway.

[wax311]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What range of hands do we put Villain on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Group 1 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I was hoping the OP or first responder would chime in.

Let's call it (TT)JJ-AA, AK.

(1x TT)
2x JJ
6x QQ
1x KK
6x AA
8x AK

We're behind to 8 or 9, ahead of 14, spliting with 1.

What does his flop raise tell us? Would he do this with AK? It changes the picture in a hurry if the answer is no. If yes, defense against a free card play has to be part of our plan.

So... what do we think everyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

He might raise the flop with AK if he's aggressive, but I can't imagine him capping and then betting out on the turn. Also, I don't see why you need to put TT in parentheses - most people would 3-bet preflop with it. That said, I think you're behind 9 (TT, JJ, AA) and ahead 6, splitting 1. Definately time to slow down in my opinion.

Edit: oops he capped the flop and then raised the turn. I'd take the cap on the flop as a hint to slow down, and I'd check the turn.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. I was hoping the OP or first responder would chime in.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry. /images/graemlins/blush.gif I blew your plan.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. I was hoping the OP or first responder would chime in.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry. /images/graemlins/blush.gif I blew your plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

No worries. The important thing is that someone chimed in. Though it's interesting that you seemed to interprt the post as genuine puzzlement on my part &lt;insert appropriate graemlin here&gt;.

[Aaron W.]

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Perfect. I'd be tempted to check-call the turn but I think that would be too weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[krishanleong]

Here is my read.

2x JJ
6x QQ
1x KK
6x AA
3x Donk

I'm ahead of 9 and behind 8. I go one more bet.

Krishan

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]


Edit: oops he capped the flop and then raised the turn. I'd take the cap on the flop as a hint to slow down, and I'd check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point of putting him on a range of hands is that we need to adjust our plan accordingly. If we're right about our range and he'll raise our flop bet with AK, a 3-bet is fine. We should also plan to lead the turn if called. If we don't think he'll raise AK, we're now only ahead of QQ and should call down.

Ok... so we 3-bet. When we're capped, we have to sit up and take notice. Remember that we capped pf and 3-bet the flop without slowing him down. Not many people are going to be this aggressive without a strong hand. We're no longer worried about giving him a free card. We also want to get to showdown cheaply.

I agree with your edit. Check/calling the rest of the way UI seems best.

[mlb3zr]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is my read.

2x JJ
6x QQ
1x KK
6x AA
3x Donk

I'm ahead of 9 and behind 8. I go one more bet.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

you forgot 1xTT. you might say I'm drawing dead against that hand. /images/graemlins/wink.gif so that makes it ahead of 9 and behind 9. do you still go one more bet?

[detruncate]

Welcome to the forum.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is my read.

2x JJ
6x QQ
1x KK
6x AA
3x Donk

I'm ahead of 9 and behind 8. I go one more bet.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this the read after the flop cap? If it's that close, check-calling is actually a little better.

The reason is that when you bet the turn and get raised, you lose a few more of those hands from the list, and suddenly you're stuck calling down in a situation where you're actually convinced you're losing.

It's the same idea as value betting on the river. You don't bet because you'll have the best hand more than 50% of the time, but you bet because you'll have the best hand more than 50% of the time *WHEN YOU'RE CALLED*. (In this case, it's when you're getting raised...)

[mlb3zr]

thanks for the advice everyone. villain showed down AKs and turned out to be a huge LAG. in the end, I took all his money. /images/graemlins/grin.gif