Accidental aggression.

[walkdoc]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 :#A500AF(Villain)/ raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villain 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Villain folds.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. Hero wins 8.75 BB. </font>

[J.DP]

I think this was pretty badly played.

That flop is very likely to have hit Villian in someway and he isn't going to fold to a check/raise very often. The pot is also too small to try things this fancy.

Check/raising the turn after Villian 3 bet the flop is awful in my opinion. The chances of Viliian having a King are high and even when he doesn't he'll probably call down anyway.

I check/call both streets. I also raise preflop.

[walkdoc]

Learn me up then. I thought an overcard and flush draw was worth protecting. Also, raise UTG+2 with A9s??? I'd do it in later position than EP, but not usually this early.
Also, the check raise was purely unintentional and accidental. I meant to hit call and hit raise instead. Luckily for me he folded.
Please tell me the error of my ways.
Sincerely;
walkdoc

[J.DP]

[ QUOTE ]
Learn me up then. I thought an overcard and flush draw was worth protecting. Also, raise UTG+2 with A9s??? I'd do it in later position than EP, but not usually this early.
Also, the check raise was purely unintentional and accidental. I meant to hit call and hit raise instead. Luckily for me he folded.
Please tell me the error of my ways.
Sincerely;
walkdoc

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite sure what you mean by 'protecting'. You are heads-up with an equity deficit, every bet you pay to see the turn is -EV. Also your Ace outs are really dirty and aren't really worth much. The only reason to check/raise the flop would be to get Villian to fold. That is very rarely going to happen on that flop.

I would raise preflop with A9s but I don't really have the knowledge to defend it. I'll wait for the experts to chime in.

Sorry if I came off as a dick in my first post. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[KaiShin]

Hero has a nut flush draw. CR'ing the flop is not betting for value or for protection, its building a big pot should we manage to hit our hand.

The flop play is decent, but I would have just bet out here. The last thing we want is this flop to be checked through, but of course that depends on your reads. You do have reads, right? If so please post them along with your hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The turn raise is ehhhh, but if you feel (again with the reads!) that villain is weak and will fold to a semi-bluff turn raise then its OK. You did pick a good scare card to do it on though. If villain is an unknown I just call here and check/fold the river UI.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero has a nut flush draw. CR'ing the flop is not betting for value or for protection, its building a big pot should we manage to hit our hand.

The flop play is decent, but I would have just bet out here. The last thing we want is this flop to be checked through, but of course that depends on your reads. You do have reads, right? If so please post them along with your hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The turn raise is ehhhh, but if you feel (again with the reads!) that villain is weak and will fold to a semi-bluff turn raise then its OK. You did pick a good scare card to do it on though. If villain is an unknown I just call here and check/fold the river UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's heads up. Pot building is a tactic for multiway pots. Getting this one checked through is not bad because Hero likely needs something more than ace high to win.

[KaiShin]

Hm good point. I forgot to adjust my play for HU situation.

Dammit, back to HUSH for a bit /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this was pretty badly played.

That flop is very likely to have hit Villian in someway and he isn't going to fold to a check/raise very often. The pot is also too small to try things this fancy.

Check/raising the turn after Villian 3 bet the flop is awful in my opinion. The chances of Viliian having a King are high and even when he doesn't he'll probably call down anyway.

I check/call both streets. I also raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising preflop is okay, but it's coming up very close to being too aggressive. I would want to be at a weak-tight table to come in for a raise there.

Also, if you want to get fancy, you want to do it in small pots. Getting fancy often means risking a -EV situation to find yourself in a better +EV one, and you would rather lose a small pot than a large one. Also, as the pot gets large, the return on your risk gets much smaller.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the check raise was purely unintentional and accidental. I meant to hit call and hit raise instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

You probably should have said that in your original post.

[J.DP]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero has a nut flush draw. CR'ing the flop is not betting for value or for protection, its building a big pot should we manage to hit our hand.

The flop play is decent, but I would have just bet out here. The last thing we want is this flop to be checked through, but of course that depends on your reads. You do have reads, right? If so please post them along with your hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The turn raise is ehhhh, but if you feel (again with the reads!) that villain is weak and will fold to a semi-bluff turn raise then its OK. You did pick a good scare card to do it on though. If villain is an unknown I just call here and check/fold the river UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Building a pot heads-up here is bad. Hero probably needs a club to take this pot down. A club is going to come in by the river 35% of the time but Hero is contributing 50% on the flop.

Every bet put in with a pot equity deficit here is -EV, Hero will lose money on his flop investment.

After 3 betting the flop Villian is hardly ever folding to the turn check/raise in my opinion. In a pot this small it is just burning chips. But the OP said it was an accident anyway so bleh. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[J.DP]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you want to get fancy, you want to do it in small pots. Getting fancy often means risking a -EV situation to find yourself in a better +EV one, and you would rather lose a small pot than a large one. Also, as the pot gets large, the return on your risk gets much smaller.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK you lost me... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Surely a fancy bluffing play would be better in a large pot where the reward is larger therefore it has to be successful less often?

Why does the return on risk get smaller with a larger pot?

You also mentioned losing large vs small pots but Hero is drawing here. He isn't risking the pot, right?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you want to get fancy, you want to do it in small pots. Getting fancy often means risking a -EV situation to find yourself in a better +EV one, and you would rather lose a small pot than a large one. Also, as the pot gets large, the return on your risk gets much smaller.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK you lost me... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Surely a fancy bluffing play would be better in a large pot where the reward is larger therefore it has to be successful less often?

Why does the return on risk get smaller with a larger pot?

You also mentioned losing large vs small pots but Hero is drawing here. He isn't risking the pot, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right about Hero drawing here and that he's not 'losing' the pot in this case.

It turns out that in a large pot the chances of a fancy bluffing play working is greatly diminished because the pot size often compells villain to "look you up" with weak hands. In this case, villain is looking to call 2 to win 9 (including river action) and folding QJs would be easy. If he were calling 2 to win 15, he would probably call down with QJs. (He's probably not computing these things in his head, but it is going on at an intuitive level: big pot = call, small pot = fold.)

The "right" size pot is one where villain can't decide if the pot is big enough to be worth a call. Finding this exact point is impossible, of course, but you can develop intuition by paying attention and gaining experience.

[J.DP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you want to get fancy, you want to do it in small pots. Getting fancy often means risking a -EV situation to find yourself in a better +EV one, and you would rather lose a small pot than a large one. Also, as the pot gets large, the return on your risk gets much smaller.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK you lost me... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Surely a fancy bluffing play would be better in a large pot where the reward is larger therefore it has to be successful less often?

Why does the return on risk get smaller with a larger pot?

You also mentioned losing large vs small pots but Hero is drawing here. He isn't risking the pot, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right about Hero drawing here and that he's not 'losing' the pot in this case.

It turns out that in a large pot the chances of a fancy bluffing play working is greatly diminished because the pot size often compells villain to "look you up" with weak hands. In this case, villain is looking to call 2 to win 9 (including river action) and folding QJs would be easy. If he were calling 2 to win 15, he would probably call down with QJs. (He's probably not computing these things in his head, but it is going on at an intuitive level: big pot = call, small pot = fold.)

The "right" size pot is one where villain can't decide if the pot is big enough to be worth a call. Finding this exact point is impossible, of course, but you can develop intuition by paying attention and gaining experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh... I get it. I hadn't even considered that.

Thanks for clearing it up.

[walkdoc]

[ QUOTE ]

Building a pot heads-up here is bad. Hero probably needs a club to take this pot down. A club is going to come in by the river 35% of the time but Hero is contributing 50% on the flop.

Every bet put in with a pot equity deficit here is -EV, Hero will lose money on his flop investment.

After 3 betting the flop Villian is hardly ever folding to the turn check/raise in my opinion. In a pot this small it is just burning chips. But the OP said it was an accident anyway so bleh. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I really appreciate what you said on the -EV here! I never thought of my 50% input compared to the 35% chance to complete my flush that way. Thanks very much, this helps me. Stats are not my strong suit, that being clubs in this hand ;-), and any input that way always helps.
Thanks all!
Walkdoc