fancy preflop play syndrome, i'm missing something

[fimbulwinter]

have recently been trying the following in live games with varied results. all the real good players seem to do things like this and such plays seem pretty foreign online, so i'd like advice on how or if i should even be doing these kinds of things.

all assume at least somewhat thinking players, deep stacks (maybe 200BB or more) and at least a somewhat tight table image.



play #1

Loose, thinking player opens in EP or EMP for 4-6xBB. 2-5 callers to me on button with a SC. I make it 20-30xBB.

play #2

many limp to me on BB. ep limpers are uncreative and ABC. I see 22-TT. I make it 12xBB.

play #3

loose, agressive player raises in MP after a limper or two. I repop 3x his bet on the button with 77-AA, AK, AQ and 56s to JTs.





obviously the above are not default plays, but i see a lot of guys doing such things very successfully and i've had maybe breakeven success trying them. what i'm really looking for is how much you guys (how frequently you make this move) like each and what conditions will trigger you to make that move rather than just calling etc.

fim

[soah]

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. These plays may not make money when you look at them in a vacuum, but you need them for shania. If you're sitting on 200+ bb stacks and you only raise from the blinds with AA and KK, you are going to lose money. There was a thread in Mid-High a while back debating what the most important part of deep NL strategy was, and many people (for example, Ray Zee) agreed that it was not letting your opponent know what you have until it is "too late."

I'd like to go into more detail, but I'm three-tabling now, so I'll let others elaborate. =)

[fimbulwinter]

appreciated. any thoughts on what i asked in the post then?

fim

[edge]

I don't like bumping it up too much with suited connectors, but I'm usually around the 100 BB level, so it makes more sense with 200 BB. It also makes more sense if you're playing live.

Plays 2 and 3 are cool though, but I usually like 88+ if I'm going to try to take it down from the blinds. I play 6-max, so my definition of a family pot is a bit different. With play 3, again, I don't really like to bump it up with a suited connector, but I'll do it sometimes against a LAG.

These plays are more suited for live play, where you're facing the same opponents for hours on end. Online, I don't think it's worth it to bump up the pot with suited connectors, since tables fall apart so quickly. I still semi-bluff-raise preflop with small pairs though, since you can often get paid quite nicely off your low set after raising it up.

[soah]

You mean where you asked what the rest of us usually do? I normally don't play that deep (and when I do get that deep, most of my opponents are still shallow). And most of my opponents are too loose. So I usually just stick to ABC poker except for times when I'm heads up, and have a read that I can get my opponent to lay down.

[xorbie]

I like Play 1. I make this move with SC from 56s to 9Ts, but not the higher ones (it really helps to have live cards).

The advantage here is that you almost always get 4 cards for free here if you want them, and if you do hit you're just about gauranteed to stack off (especially with a straight). People will put you on QQ/KK/AA/AK and think you are bluffing. I do this moreso online than in live play actually, but that's because my home game is only 50x BB.

Play 2: Can't say, I don't use this. The problem here is that what are people calling you with? Probably just pocket pairs or suited connecters, people with something like KJ or AT are probably just going to fol and give you less action on a set if you hit one. Maybe this isn't so, but I dunno.

Play 3: I like the idea of getting heads up with the LAG and letting him bet into you OOP, but I don't like the idea of showing a lot of strength in a situation where you might want to trap. I guess it depends on how likely the EP limpers are to fold.

[sawseech]

1 is a major power-play and you need to be the best player by a fair margin to make it work, but it is definite (winning) art play

2 loses money in my experience against everyone

3 ditto you can't force a lag to fold short of risking a stack and why would you want to do that when you'll get him sooner or later anyways?

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]

play #1

Loose, thinking player opens in EP or EMP for 4-6xBB. 2-5 callers to me on button with a SC. I make it 20-30xBB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too much, too many players, and the position is too obvious for such a play IMO. I'd rather limp and play the SC against the field than wind up in a pot that is too big for my hand. Unless you are pretty sure your table image will support a bluff into a broadway board.


[ QUOTE ]

play #2

many limp to me on BB. ep limpers are uncreative and ABC. I see 22-TT. I make it 12xBB.

[/ QUOTE ]


I like it, but I'd raise a bit more to generate FE. You dont want callers here.

[ QUOTE ]

play #3

loose, agressive player raises in MP after a limper or two. I repop 3x his bet on the button with 77-AA, AK, AQ and 56s to JTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, thats a good move to make occassionally.


I think these plays are worthwhile in moderation...the key is that you are at a table you feel comfortable at...where you are pretty sure you can outplay your opponents postflop and where there is fold equity. I think even alot of good players overuse these tactics. And many of these moves are more appropriate for tourney play than cash games IMO.

[greg nice]

[ QUOTE ]



play #1

Loose, thinking player opens in EP or EMP for 4-6xBB. 2-5 callers to me on button with a SC. I make it 20-30xBB.



[/ QUOTE ]

online at least, thinking players know a reraise to be AA or KK. as i move up im seeing pf raisers folding to a 3x reraise. i suspect that unless someone has AA, KK, or flops a set, you will take the pot on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]

play #2

many limp to me on BB. ep limpers are uncreative and ABC. I see 22-TT. I make it 12xBB.



[/ QUOTE ]

the downside here is that youre out of position. the good thing is that your hand is fairly simple to play. if you dont improve on the flop and get called behind you, then youre in tough shape.

from a disguise your hand standpoint, i mean, so you flop a set on a ragged flop, and they read you for an overpair. they are still going to have to make a biggish hand of two pair for you to make some money.

[ QUOTE ]

play #3

loose, agressive player raises in MP after a limper or two. I repop 3x his bet on the button with 77-AA, AK, AQ and 56s to JTs.



[/ QUOTE ]

i like this the best of the three. thats because not only are you taking the initiative and hopefully isolating, but you will often have the best hand so you really arent making that huge a mistake. couple that with that fact that you have the button which should help subdue his aggression

[soah]

I'll try to expand a bit more on what I wrote earlier.

[ QUOTE ]
Loose, thinking player opens in EP or EMP for 4-6xBB. 2-5 callers to me on button with a SC. I make it 20-30xBB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here you are representing AA or KK. So first of all, your opponents have to understand that. If the PFR is gonna call you down with JJ or something, then this is just spewing chips. If any of the callers are morons that will see every flop and go to the felt with any decent pair, then this is spewing chips. But if your opponents know what you're representing, and won't go broke if they can't beat what you're representing (or get priced in to suck out on what you're representing) then this is a good play. The only obstacle is that sometimes the PFR will have the hand which you are representing -- but there is so much dead money in the pot that the move only has to be successful about half of the time in order to break even. A solid grasp of game theory would help out a lot here. Even if they know that you're bluffing about 20% of the time that you make this move, they are still powerless to fight back against you if they hold a hand like JJ or TT. If they choose to stay in the hand, you'll snap them off most of the time. I don't care to crunch numbers on the optimal bluffing frequency here, but I'm sure it would depend on what range of hands your opponent is raising with, how deep the stacks are, etc. But the key is not to overdo it.

And as I mentioned earlier, it's good for shania and image considerations. If you end up showing down one of these hands, you can be sure to get extra action later when you have the goods by people that overcompensate and begin calling you too much. Even if you don't show down any of the hands, they still might notice that you seem to be playing very aggressive, and suspect you of stealing some pots here and there.

[ QUOTE ]
many limp to me on BB. ep limpers are uncreative and ABC. I see 22-TT. I make it 12xBB.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is similar to the first one, but probably a lot more important. The key here is that you're out of position, and the raise is only about 5% of your total stack. If you only do this with big pairs against decent players, you'll be playing -EV poker. Your opponents can steal from you postflop whenever rags fall, because they KNOW you don't have a hand that can handle 200bb's worth of pressure. On the other hand, if you raise with 88, you'll be playing +EV poker postflop against people playing for set value -- you can steal the pot on the flop most of the time, even without the best hand, and if your opponents flop a set, they aren't getting paid off any. Even if they re-steal sometimes, it still won't overcome the fact that they are not getting paid off at all the rest of the time. And instead, you can double through them when you flop set over set. This also is the reason why I wouldn't advise raising with pairs below sixes or sevens here -- flopping bottom set when your opponent is also playing for set value is useless. I'd rather have an overpair... at least then it's two outs instead of one (not that it makes much difference). Another consideration is that if your opponents know that you will randomly raise with mid-pairs, it will slow them down with their postflop thievery -- any flop could have made you top set. And of course the final note of caution... use this move sparingly. The last thing you want is for people to start playing back at you when you're in there with trash.

[ QUOTE ]
loose, agressive player raises in MP after a limper or two. I repop 3x his bet on the button with 77-AA, AK, AQ and 56s to JTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not much new to add about this one.

I guess you left out the other obvious one -- you're in the blinds and there's been a raise (not an LP steal raise) and you put in a big reraise. Under normal circumstances, you're going to get credit for a monster here. I even saw a relatively poor player lay down KK face up to a continuation bet on the flop after a very solid player had reraised him from the blinds. I've also seen a lot of players smoothcall the reraise even with AA because they don't want to scare off KK/QQ. Take advantage of this to see a flop and try to get lucky. But make sure you pick your opponents carefully. It takes a strong player to lay down a big hand when you represent something one step better.

Amusing related story: The other night my game is going about seven-handed. I've been getting bad-beated nonstop, and I can't get any of my money back because people aren't giving me any action (and I'm not being a rock either). I mumble something about how I'm going to just raise the next hand blind. The cards are dealt, it's folded to me in the CO, and the button is a 2+2er who won't tangle with me, so I make it $20 and a LAG in the bb calls. Flop is ragged, he checks and I make my usual $30 flop bet and he calls. I look at my cards and find K2s. I flopped bottom pair. We check it down and MHIG and I tell them I raised blind. On the next hand I see AQo and make it $20 and Julia makes it $40 on the button. This is the first time Julia has played with us, but it didn't take long to figure out that she was a rock. A tight-passive rock. I'm frustrated now because I'm not sure that she realized I actually looked at my cards this time (I didn't do anything to indicate that I intended to raise blind again, nor did I make any effort to hide the fact that I was looking at them... but I just can't be sure of what she's thinking). I can't bring myself to play the hand. I muck face up and she shows 22 and gains about seven levels of respect in my book.

[fimbulwinter]

this requires a shortstacked situation (like 50 or less BB's) a lag on the left of you.

many limp to you in LMP with 99-JJ, AK-AJ, you call, LAG raises on button, many call to you, you push.


ran this line 4 times in my last session. pretty low risk as all the LRR'ers get flushed out and you always get marked with complete crap so the range of hands calling here is normally not only those that dominate you. three times it was folded and once i got it in with TT against 44. not too shabby.

fim

[redsoxsox]

Herers a play u guys might Like against a Loose aggressive that had raised 25% of the last 20 hands. Tell me if this is played right or not

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($43)
Button ($58.22)
SB ($46.25)
BB ($52.05)
UTG ($167.55)
UTG+1 ($96.32)
UTG+2 ($50)
MP1 ($48.75)
MP2 ($143.2)
Hero ($50)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls $3.

Flop: ($12.75) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, UTG+1 calls $7.

Turn: ($26.75) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($26.75) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets $10</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $25</font>, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $61.75

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
The cards are dealt, it's folded to me in the CO, and the button is a 2+2er who won't tangle with me,

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah...for good reason!

I don't recall your mumbles about raising the next hand, but why on earth do I want to play heads up against a better player who has been getting non-stop bad beats?

And there's no way Julie would have played 22 had I called/re-raised your open raise.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

KoW

[edge]

[ QUOTE ]
this requires a shortstacked situation (like 50 or less BB's) a lag on the left of you.

many limp to you in LMP with 99-JJ, AK-AJ, you call, LAG raises on button, many call to you, you push.


ran this line 4 times in my last session. pretty low risk as all the LRR'ers get flushed out and you always get marked with complete crap so the range of hands calling here is normally not only those that dominate you. three times it was folded and once i got it in with TT against 44. not too shabby.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

This is standard for me against a short stack LAG. There isn't really another way to play it, since you would be all-in on most flops anyway, and most flops don't make you incredibly happy.