Overplaying against maniac?

[Bizot]

Guy is a total maniac capped with gutshot a few times check raised with gutshots anything he bets i take with a mountain of salt with that said....


Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls.

God this flop makes me unhappy

Turn: (5.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Ok check raised again.... he does this all the time so i can't put him on anything solid here.

River: (9.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

check call? i hate the 4 to the suit but i can't just let him buy it can i?

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

[Danenania]

Maniacs get hands too. This one I would call the flop raise then fold the turn unimproved.

[Bizot]

the stuff he has been showing down with is complete garbage... probaly should have dropped it though to many clubs

[Danenania]

I understand but putting in many bets with a K-high gutshot on a monotone board where you have none of the suit is not the answer.

[Bizot]

rainbow or flush draw board fire away or still no?

[sweetjazz]

Here's a line to consider...

Check behind on the flop; call the turn and river bets. Against a random hand, you don't have that much equity here, since you could already be behind a pair or be up against a flush draw with 6 live pair outs. So I don't want to get a lot of bets in this pot.

But I think you'll be good at least 1-in-3 times by the river (sometimes winning unimproved), and I think you can safely expect your opponent will bet into you the next two streets because you have shown weakness.

I don't know why you want to get a lot of bets into the pot when the flop comes really bad for you. You may have been lucky that the maniac had nothing that could beat you this time, but you had a weak hand on the flop. I'd offer a different line if you had paired up, had a draw to a good flush, or had A high with another overcard.

The river call is absolutely mandatory given the action to that point. There's no way you can fold for just one more, as you'll easily be good at least 1-in-10 times.

[Bizot]

I don't know why you want to get a lot of bets into the pot when the flop comes really bad for you. You may have been lucky that the maniac had nothing that could beat you this time, but you had a weak hand on the flop. I'd offer a different line if you had paired up, had a draw to a good flush, or had A high with another overcard.


The reason was a really really bad one... past hands were playing a factor here and i was a bit ticked off and some of his river cards, and low and behold he got me here again.

Thinking with revenge in the back of my mind is a terrible terrible way to play, or when i try to bankrupt people for fun.... /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[sweetjazz]

The way to beat maniacs is to control the size of the pot. Be willing to put a lot of chips in when you have a strong hand, but keep the pot small when your hand is not strong. In general, you shouldn't be folding too often against a maniac once you've decided preflop to play. That's because you'll typically be raising with your good hands preflop, and he may even 3-bet you. No matter how bad the flop has come, you're probably getting odds to call down *against a random hand*.

But when the flop is really bad for you, you should be trying to induce bluffs. You *know* he's going to bet every hand that beats yours in this case, and you want to get him to bet his other worse hands as well. He'll no doubt bet a lot of them too, including flush draws, but unfortunately for you, he's got decent equity to do so on the flop. And when's he ahead after the flop, you *don't* have the equity to be putting in lots of bets.

Remember that no matter what situation you are in, your goal should be to make the decisions that will maximize your EV. Maniacs can win enormous amounts of money over short (and even sometimes not-so-short) periods of time. You must accept this, and realize that while it's great to go up against a maniac, you will not always come out ahead. And trying to "get your money back" is a bad idea if it causes you to make -EV plays. Don't let him get you off your A game. Adjust to his playing style in order to maximize EV, but don't let him get under your skin and cause you to make inferior plays. Let other people do that, thereby increasing the survival chances for the maniac and thus the likelihood that you will get to take the maniac's money later. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
The way to beat maniacs is to control the size of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a true maniac(never call except caps, never check, never fold), this is not the best strategy.

If he is not a true maniac, you will have to use your best judgment, but you should be putting in a lot of action with marginal hands.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]


Against a true maniac(never call except caps, never check, never fold), this is not the best strategy.

If he is not a true maniac, you will have to use your best judgment, but you should be putting in a lot of action with marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very right. It's not unreasonable to pass up on truly marginal edges to reduce your variance, depending on your bankroll limitations and psychological breaking point.

But in general, your goal is to maximize EV. In the case of Kh Th on a board of Jc 9c 5c, I don't think you have enough equity against even a random hand to push here. And that's assuming a true maniac as you describe him. (It's probably close, though.)

I think both are general principles are consistent:
*Against a maniac, you want to control the size of the pot, getting more bets in the better your own hand is. (Since the maniac plays aggressively with almost all of his hands, hand reading goes way down in value and knowing how your own hand does against a wide range of possible hands becomes crucial.)
* Because the maniac plays so aggressively and goes too far with so many bad hands, you should push marginal edges that wouldn't normally exist in other situations. Having KhJh on a board of AdJs3s is easily worth a flop cap against a maniac, and how many bets go in on the turn depend on just how maniacal the player is. If he were a true maniac, I wouldn't have a problem with all streets getting capped, assuming nothing too scary (e.g. two more spades) comes.

[Jeff W]

Board: Jc 9c 5c
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 44.1215 % [ 00.42 00.02 ] { KhTh }
Hand 2: 55.8785 % [ 00.54 00.02 ] { random }

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
Guy is a total maniac capped with gutshot a few times check raised with gutshots anything he bets i take with a mountain of salt with that said....

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't get the sense from this player read description that this guy is a "random hand maniac". If he needs at least a pair or a draw or even A-high to checkraise the flop then you are not in good shape at all, even if he's on a pure bluff sometimes.

[Bizot]

he had a draw

thanks for the good post about maniacs i'll be sure to use it well i had no clue what to do before /images/graemlins/laugh.gif