too much for too little?

[BradL]

First hand at table, playerview hasnt loaded yet and no notes on button.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.66 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.33 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls.

River: (7.33 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>...

Final Pot: 8.33 BB

I called the flop planning to checkraise bluff/semibluff any straight draw or heart. I was going to checkraise a jack and had not quite made up my mind about a king. Obviously the river is automatic but I was pretty unsure about the rest of the hand.

-Brad

[JAA]

I would really like this line if you had some read on the villain in this hand. Against a random Party $15 player (read:donkey), I don't know how successful you are going to be.

As an aside, I think I'm becoming too dependant on PlayerView. I'm beginning to get uncomfortable the two hands before it loads. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

- Jags

[lostinthought]

I agree - I like the play, but I like it better against someone I know who has a propensity to fold.

But if it didn't work I am sure it got you some action on later streets.

[stoxtrader]

I generally c/r this type of flop. and then lead the turn if he calls. I think it's a slightly cheaper way of accomplishing the same thing.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
I generally c/r this type of flop. and then lead the turn if he calls. I think it's a slightly cheaper way of accomplishing the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you then laying it down if he calls and pops you back on the turn?

[Lestat]

Serious question...

If you have a decent feel that your KJ is the best hand, then I think you should definitely play it as such. But do you really think it's necessary to so heavily contest such a small pot in a full game?

In other words, will this make or break you in the Party 15 games? I have to admit, I'll make my stands, but I don't always try to run an unimproved KJ through a stealer like poop through a goose. Many stealers would have ace/type hands that would've made a pair on this board or a straight draw which they are not folding to.

Again, I make my stands. I'll even sometimes bet or check/raise a KJ on an ace-high flop. But usually when I think I could have the best hand. Otherwise, I tend not to sweat the small pots in a full game. Do you think I'm giving up too much in these Party games?

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]

Are you then laying it down if he calls and pops you back on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the reason I favor waiting for the turn card in a spot like this. It "defines" your hand more clearly in your opponents eyes and leaves less room for him to get fancy without a real hand.

-Brad

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Serious question...

If you have a decent feel that your KJ is the best hand, then I think you should definitely play it as such. But do you really think it's necessary to so heavily contest such a small pot in a full game?

In other words, will this make or break you in the Party 15 games? I have to admit, I'll make my stands, but I don't always try to run an unimproved KJ through a stealer like poop through a goose. Many stealers would have ace/type hands that would've made a pair on this board or a straight draw which they are not folding to.

Again, I make my stands. I'll even sometimes bet or check/raise a KJ on an ace-high flop. But usually when I think I could have the best hand. Otherwise, I tend not to sweat the small pots in a full game. Do you think I'm giving up too much in these Party games?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. I agree. You certainly can't get bullied out of every pot but going apeshit is also not good.

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
But do you really think it's necessary to so heavily contest such a small pot in a full game?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is basically the question I was trying to ask. Not really small pots in general but situations like this where your hand may be best, but it is far more likely a small dog; however, the texture of the board allows for a number of powerful bluffs that your opponent would be hard-pressed to call down with A high unimproved or possibly a baby pair.

-Brad

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
but going apeshit is also not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the texture of the board is this really apeshit? Im not being sarcastic im seriously asking...

-Brad

[JAA]

[ QUOTE ]
This is basically the question I was trying to ask. Not really small pots in general but situations like this where your hand may be best, but it is far more likely a small dog; however, the texture of the board allows for a number of powerful bluffs that your opponent would be hard-pressed to call down with A high unimproved or possibly a baby pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This situation arises a fair amount and an ability to exploit it deifnitely adds to your winrate. Yes, your edge is small and plays like this will increase your fluctuations. But no, this isn't an example of going "apeshit." It's approaching "apeshit" moreso that say check-raising with top pair, but it's definitely a legitimate line.

I may be biased, because playing short-handed is one of my favorite things and I savor pushing small edges. But hey, an edge is an edge is an edge, right? Small edges add up quickly, especially for multi-tablers.

- Jags

[Lestat]

I just don't like to be in situations where I'm thinking more about how to get my opponent to fold a better hand, than I am about the quality of my own hand or potential outs.

If he has an ace, you're beat for now. Your hoping he has a Q,T, or 9 kicker, because you can now win by making a pair. Almost any other sidecard already gives him a pair or a straight draw which he almost can't fold no matter what you do. Not to mention a flush draw, some other pair/straight draw type hand or any other real hand.

Personally, I think you went too far. I don't like the board for your hand. But I could certainly be wrong. I see good players mixing it up all the time on Party and they seem to do well. It could be I'm not getting in there and mixing it up enough with them. I'm interested to see what others say.

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> I savor pushing small edges. </font>

As do I.

<font color="red">But hey, an edge is an edge is an edge, right? </font>

But KJ versus a steal is not always KJ versus a steal. I'm not saying you should ever throw this hand away here, but do you accept the bunching theory? In other words, KJo against a steal in a full game is not quite the same as in a short game. The edge is different both in value and in type. Would you agree with this?

<font color="red"> Small edges add up quickly, especially for multi-tablers. </font>

But so do small dogs. You must seize upon small edges in short games, because he who hesitates is lost. There simply isn't enough time to wait. But this isn't so much of a problem in a full game. But I wonder if I might be too patient for these 15 games? I don't think this would be my standard line.

[mike l.]

meaningless. it doesnt matter what you do.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
But do you really think it's necessary to so heavily contest such a small pot in a full game?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Against aggressive players (and typical Party 15/30 are aggressive) I think checking and calling will often win the most and lose the least.

Plus wouldn't check/call, check/call, bet the river look really scary with this river card?