More 2nd Pair Confusion

[waynethetrain]

When I flop 2nd pair against 2 opponents and don't have any overcard, kicker, or other draw should I lead out like this?

When I got raised should I have thrown in the towel right there?

It looked I was right just under borderline of correct pot odds with 5 outs assuming UTG called. However, I thought there was at least some small chance I was ahead. Button could have been raising with a draw.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

[mhardy]

But who would call pf from the button knowing only for certain that there's one other bettor? Any hand worth calling there is wortth raising, so why didn't he? It doesn't make sense he'd be on a draw HU with such a tiny little pot.

Being in the worst position with that little pot it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot to fight over. I'm no expert and probably would've bet just like you did but I don't think I would've called the raise (maybe that's my weakness). Having odds and a reason to call IMO are two different things. I don't want to make a little pot big with my money...

[cmwck]

This pot is tiny. You don't have odds to call a bet on the flop, and you don't have odds to call the raise either. That's 7.5:1 on the raise, but you would need at least a full 5 outs to call. I'd say you have 4.

[Shillx]

I don't like it. The flop is gutshottish and two toned. The KT should be right in UTGs happy zone. A bet with AT would be fine here, but he is too likely to have a hand like JT or QJ or T9 that has you beat (or a nice draw) and will call all the way. Of course he could also have a king as well. The main thing to consider about betting flops like this with 2nd pair is your kicker. If you have a bad kicker you should probably check/fold in a small pot. With a good kicker it should be correct to bet and see what happens. You should also consider that most people you play against are loose and love to call with weak hands. Exploit this by betting your strong hands and strong draws and let them call with weak hands and weak draws.

Given that you did bet the flop, the rest of the hand looks good. It is similar to the example when a passive player raises the flop after you bet top pair/bad kicker. Even if he did raise on the draw, it came in and you are drawing dead. If of course he has a king here, you have five outs and don't have odds to draw.

Let's assume that the turn was the 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif instead of the 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Now you should check and fold to a bet as well, but it brings up an interesting point. Against thinking players, you shouldn't always accept the free card when given the option after you raise the flop on the draw. If the flop bettor will toss in a hand like mid pair or top pair/no kicker to a turn bet, then you should follow up the free card play with a bet when you miss.

Brad

[Fishlips_Jones]

I play it the same way you did.

Fishlips

[waynethetrain]

Thanks. Got it.

Second pair is still a major struggle for me. I'm not sure if it is a big leak because I tend to play them conservatively (unless against 1-2 players), but I'm certainly still often confused after the hand. At this point I think I am still better off trying to avoid the mistakes of aggression than conservatism until I grasp it all better.

My turn thinking was correct.

[Glintir]

I like the flop bet. No reason to think the BB has anything, and the button may have missed.

However, when he reraises, he's either got a King or a Ten with a better kicker than yours, maybe a flush draw and lots of heart. But, don't forget UTG, he's along for the ride. What's he got. So figure your Tens are suspect, giving you 2 outs with the 6s, because the diamond is no good. So that's about 24 to 1.

And the odds that you have the best hand right now are very low.

Fold, then fold some more to that reraise.

Course, I could be wrong, I've been wrong before.


:Edit: Sorry, got the positions wrong. But I still stick with my analyses, nobody showed strength preflop, see where you're at.

[Glintir]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it. The flop is gutshottish and two toned. The KT should be right in UTGs happy zone. A bet with AT would be fine here, but he is too likely to have a hand like JT or QJ or T9 that has you beat (or a nice draw) and will call all the way.

[/ QUOTE ]\

I don't get this thinking. I'm not arguing that he'll call with lots of draws, but if you check you know nothing at all about the opponents hand. If you bet and he calls, you can put him on a draw or a weak Ten. If you bet and he raises you're beat enough times to fold. If you check and it checks around, you gave a free card on a drawing board, bad boy. If you check and he bets... you know squat, and have to fold anyway.

I guess I'm just not seeing why you should play this hand so tight on the flop with two limpers.

[waynethetrain]

The more I look at it, the more I think I should have folded to the raise given the way I lead out. I was figuring I had 5 outs (2-Ts, 3-6s) and some possibility I was ahead and raising a draw, but I underrated the "possibilty" that the raiser had T better kicker and that the 6D could be a killer.

I don't know how some of you guys multi-table and keep the quality of your game so high. I realize the better you get the more automatic some of these things become (I see it in myself to some degree already), but some things still require some thought and I don't see how you can get to that higher level when dealing with 4 tables.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it. The flop is gutshottish and two toned. The KT should be right in UTGs happy zone. A bet with AT would be fine here, but he is too likely to have a hand like JT or QJ or T9 that has you beat (or a nice draw) and will call all the way.

[/ QUOTE ]\

I don't get this thinking. I'm not arguing that he'll call with lots of draws, but if you check you know nothing at all about the opponents hand. If you bet and he calls, you can put him on a draw or a weak Ten. If you bet and he raises you're beat enough times to fold. If you check and it checks around, you gave a free card on a drawing board, bad boy. If you check and he bets... you know squat, and have to fold anyway.

I guess I'm just not seeing why you should play this hand so tight on the flop with two limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem imo is that lots of players will call you with:

A) Nothing
B) Some kind of a draw be it weak or strong
C) A king
D) Some other pair like mid pair or a small pocket

So when we bet and get called, now what do we do? Do we really wan't to invest 1.5 BB into this pot with just 2nd pair and no kicker? They might have called with a flush draw, but they might have called with a gutshot or pocket fives or just 2 random /images/graemlins/heart.gifs hoping to backdoor a flush. By checking the turn, we are essentially forefitting the pot that is now starting to get bigger. It makes to sense to bet into a small pot when you know you will get called and then check/fold in a pot twice it's size when you are unsure of what your opponents have. Just because they called on the flop doesn't mean that they have something. My problem is that we are playing against people who love to call you with weak hands. Bet your strong hands for value and let them steal small pots when you have weak hands.

Brad

[Glintir]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because they called on the flop doesn't mean that they have something. My problem is that we are playing against people who love to call you with weak hands. Bet your strong hands for value and let them steal small pots when you have weak hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, now I get it. You're saying the usual result here is a bet followed by two calls. Then you either bet and get two calls on the turn or check-fold. I'm assuming a good hand will raise, and a bad hand will fold. I'm only half right (if that). Save this logic for higher limits.

That said, once he's bet and been called and raised, I don't see any excuse to continue.