Maximizing payoff: flopped flush vs overpair/set

[BZ_Zorro]

Hello all,

I'm new at these forums, been playing poker online for about two months now at pp, and have just started making money consistently, albeit small amounts. I want to improve my game and I'll be posting a fair bit in future - so look out!

Down to business:

$50 STT, opponent is a tight and solid player (pokerbloodhound)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1060)
UTG (t940)
UTG+1 (t900)
UTG+2 (t1040)
Hero (t1130)
MP2 (t745)
MP3 (t960)
CO (t1075)
Button (t975)
SB (t1175)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t54</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG calls t39, Hero calls t39.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero is all-In [1076]

Clearly my desire was to extract as much value as possible from this hand. I put MP3 on a high pp preflop, and I figured my best bet was to make it look (to a good player) like I'm afraid of the flush draw or a silly player drawing to a flush. Combined with no pf reraise I figured that would a honeypot to a strong hand.

My questions are:

1. Was this the right play? Should I have slow played this hand?
2. Was it ridiculous to read a high pp from this unusual raise?

Results to come

[citanul]

your opponent is not a tight/solid player if he raises to 54 behind 2 limpers at level 1. i don't know where you come up with "high pocket pair" from the action thus far.

beyond that, i hate your play.

your have a tiny little pot, and the nuts. (when using the converter, tell it to note the size of the pot on each street.) your opponent may be "confused" by your bet, but really, it's a scary board! let's go with your read of "high pocket pair" for a second.

villain has say: AA, KK, QQ, JJ or TT.

TT is folding, you're getting now more chips from him.

JJ and QQ: well, he's screwed, what can i say. but, he's less screwed sometimes than if you had just bet, since some people may (may) fold here facing a push. however, he's likely going to bet out those hands, and, he's likely going to give you all his chips with them if you bet smaller. of the hands, these are clearly the ones you don't want him to flip up.

AA, KK, eh, you might get someone to give you all his chips in this fashion, but really, why are you trying to get them all in one swoop. you have the nuts! against AA and KK, you're not afraid of any turn and river basically. why not let him try to hit his 4 flush with Kh if he's going to try? (eh, that may be a silly sort of point, but really, it points to the bigger problem.)

the bigger problem is this: you can't always just get your opponents whole stack in there every time he has a good hand and you have a better one by just betting it all. sometimes you have to consider the fact that he has say, 7 outs, or 0 outs, and give him a bad price on those outs (easy when he has 0), but not give him a much more easy path to a fold he might not normally make.

so yeah, overall, i think this hand stinks, and reaks of scaredness.

citanul

oh, and don't even get me started on the other hands the guy could have had, that he could give you chips with, but he won't now that you've pushed.

[whynot?]

99/100 no matter what you bet there you win the hand. I believe i check/call til the river unless something scary flops (i.e. pairing the board). that way you imply at best your on a draw and he may have you - at worst you end up probably where you ended up. and yes i dont think you can infer anything by a bizarre bet like that

[parttimepro]

The only time a "tight and solid player" would call that overbet would be with JJ, QQ, or a flush. That type of player will probably fold AA, KK here. There are 2 lines you can take, depending on your risk tolerance. The safe play is to bet about 150. The riskier play is to check to the pf raiser, let him bet, let UTG call, then raise. If you do this and pf checks behind, you'll have to be worried if the board pairs, and try to play a small pot.

His pf raise to 54 doesn't necessarily mean a monster, but I've noticed that irregular bets tend to mean big hands.

[Saint_D]

PF: I don't like the limp here. A9s is a strong hand. But I only like to play monsters till the blinds get dangerous. I would have bet 30-60 and tried to isolate UTG if I decided to play it. It's hard to know this early if you have to give MP3 any credit. You are way to strong to fold, so check it OK given your lack of raising to start.

Flop: Heh, this is the kind of flop that makes me glad I am not in the room with these guys. You have the nuts at this point. K /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif has a slim chance to outdraw you.

You won't get action from anyone who doesn't have the flush, a high PP or the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Going all in announces that you do, indeed have the flush. You probably could have bet in the 100 range to try to extract chips from someone on a draw. If they have second flush, they will come over the top and you can bring them all in.

How did you end up doing at this table? What's your overall in the money % for this level of SNG? How many do you have under your belt?

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
The only time a "tight and solid player" would call that overbet would be with JJ, QQ, or a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see anything in the original post about a tight and solid player. You're quoting citanul. (My fault, I reread a little closer and saw it at the very beginning.)

It's hard to tell what merit this play has. On the one hand, it's hard to imagine getting called by a wide range of hands just on the basis of the board. On the other hand, it has some appeal precisely because the push is such a fishy looking bet. I can definitely see people calling this with KK or AA.

Now, this read of it being a high pocket pair in the first round based on a standard preflop raise (which is a bit small behind the limpers) is kind of silly. But unless he can induce a bluff from somebody else, this doesn't seem like the kind of board that's going to generate a bunch of action no matter what. This way, he looks like he's making a move, and somebody with a hand might decide to look him up. I'm not crazy about it, and I don't think I'd play it this way myself, but I don't think it's as bad as you guys are making it sound.

[rickr]

What about a small bet on that flop, like your trying to steal. Check the turn no matter what? I've done this and been bet hard into on a non 4 flush by big pockets thinking I was throwing a blocking bet on the flop. Haven't decided if it works or not, but you'll get paid more often than pushing.

Later,
Rick

[BZ_Zorro]

Thanks for replying

Results: (for some reason the hand converter didn't work)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t54</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG calls t39, Hero calls t39.

Flop: (t184.50) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
*** checks.
Hero is all-In [1076]
MP3 is all-In [906]
*** folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
Hero shows [ 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif ] a flush, ace high.
MP3 shows [ K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif ] a pair of kings.
MP3 finished in tenth place.
Hero wins 170 chips from side pot #1 with a flush, ace high.
Hero wins 1999 chips from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
gh
MP3 has left the table.

As for the high pp read, I think it was good, regardless of the results above. Someone raising an odd amount (that they have to type in) is a strong sign they're up to no good, especially a tight player with few limpers in later position. AK would have been a straight up raise. To me it seems like they're betting for value, trying to catch an unwary caller or two. Go ahead and laugh, but it's been spot on several times.

I agree with citanul and others, 99 times out of 100 I would have slow played this hand, (the only threat was the set-&gt;fh draw, which would have called anyway), but I wondered if going with my gut had any value in this case. There's no way someone is going to put me on my hand leading out with a bet like this, and it's just too tempting for a set or overpair or pair &amp; flush draw to let go. Especially if they're trying to be tricky and trap a fish with a good hand. Of course if my read was bad it was a terrible play.

Worst case scenario I win 150 chips and show a stupidly betted monster to the table, which will make people think twice later on.

Any thoughts? Am I justifying a bad play? Feedback much appreciated.

[BZ_Zorro]

rickr,

Thanks for the feedback, you're spot on. I think I was scared of the 4 flush or something else (A or board pairing) that might scare my victim away. Your suggestion would have been a much better option, and might have kept the third player in as well.

Cheers,
BZ

[microbet]

If I have a monster I like to play it like I have a mediocre hand, by say, betting 1/2 - 3/4 pot. You might drive off some hands that could catch something, but you look less like a monster, you will induce raises, and you will still price them into drawing dead.