going broke with big aces

[chopchoi]

This is a situation I often encounter in NL tournaments and SNG's.

I'm in second place with about 2,000 chips, blinds are 50/100. I get AK, raise 4x BB, and get 1 caller, who has about 1400 chips (1000 after calling). The flop is all rags.

Now, some people say check/fold here. The problem is, with AK, you're only going to hit the flop about a third of the time. So, if you fold whenever you miss, you're effectively giving your opponent 2:1 odds on you're pre-flop bet. That doesn't sound too bright to me, so I think you need to bet.

I bet 500 chips, he goes all-in. I'm getting 5:1 odds with 6 outs. I have to call. He shows pocket 8's, and I don't improve. Now I'm down to 600 chips and the blinds are going up to 75/150.

How do I keep from going broke with big aces? Should I just limp or min raise with them?

[calmasahinducow]

Or you can check when you're out of position with nothing.

[Nicok7]

You answered your own question I think, this is to avoid a situation like this where u are commited with Ace high, that people prefer not to bet on the flop.

Personally I raise 4BB (or all in if I have less than 10BB andnobody is short stack enough to make it worth a fold) and then will probably check fold when I miss.

[chopchoi]

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Or you can check when you're out of position with nothing.

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So if I check, what do I do whaen he bets, fold?

Why should I raise the flop if I'm going to check/fold 2/3 of the time? That seems like giving money away. If I'm going to fold when I miss the flop, then wouldn't I be better off just limping in?

[proell]

At what point in the tournament are you at? It's not clear from the post.

Anyway, if you are going to be forced to call a re-raise from this player then there is no reason not to make that very clear by putting them all-in with your original bet. A 1000 bet on the flop into a ~1000 pot is not out of line. You probably get called in this case (depending on what the rags are).

But at this point, facing the raise I may lay it down here depending on what type of read I had on the player. It takes a special player to raise all-in on the bubble (I'm assuming we're on the bubble) with absolutely nothing vs a preflop raiser who bets the flop strong. And at this point there is a big difference between having a stack of 10BB vs one of 5BB.

But in general I am a strong believer in the continuation bet.

[Paul2432]

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Or you can check when you're out of position with nothing.

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So if I check, what do I do whaen he bets, fold?

Why should I raise the flop if I'm going to check/fold 2/3 of the time? That seems like giving money away. If I'm going to fold when I miss the flop, then wouldn't I be better off just limping in?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no pat answer here. You need to consider the player, the board, stack sizes, postition, etc.
Also, you need to balance your play with AK with your play with large pairs. For example, if you raise in EP with AK and get called by the button, a check after the flop should not give away your hand. You have to check KK here sometimes (not often) to cover the times you check with AK.

Paul

[calmasahinducow]

AK is a much better limit hand than NL. IMHO, it is vastly overrated because of situations like these where your opponent can destroy your odds to draw with a single bet. In limit you can call down til the river in most cases, but in NL EP it's a tough hand to play. Don't feel you HAVE to play a certain way.

[Voltron87]

You can not raise with AK in SNGs. Unless it's a push. Everyone should try it sometime.

[chopchoi]

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Or you can check when you're out of position with nothing.

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So if I check, what do I do whaen he bets, fold?

Why should I raise the flop if I'm going to check/fold 2/3 of the time? That seems like giving money away. If I'm going to fold when I miss the flop, then wouldn't I be better off just limping in?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no pat answer here. You need to consider the player, the board, stack sizes, postition, etc.
Also, you need to balance your play with AK with your play with large pairs. For example, if you raise in EP with AK and get called by the button, a check after the flop should not give away your hand. You have to check KK here sometimes (not often) to cover the times you check with AK.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but if this is the first time I played with him, at the most I had AA or KK once, and maybe not at all. He won't know how I would play it, and will probably take my check as a sign of weakness, and bet out with any two cards.

[morgan180]

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You can not raise with AK in SNGs. Unless it's a push. Everyone should try it sometime.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense, but i think this is just wrong. is there a time to limp with AK? I've read some good arguments for it, but personally I always raise with it in an unraised pot. Raptor likes to play it as a drawing hand and limps and he's very good, and alot of other good players insist you have to raise.

The way I like to play it, especially in early position is to raise something like 2.5 BB instead of 4, then if the flop misses you you can check fold if you think you are against a made hand and a big bet, or bet if you are against a weak opponent or ahead. But by keeping the pot small-ish PF it gives you the ability to either conserve chips, or win the pot with a smaller bets on the flop, etc.

I personally don't get the "i have to play AK for all my chips" school of thought nor the "i don't want to play for any chips" camp - i think its somewhere in the middle.

JMHO

[Mez]

Why raise 4xBB to 400?? Do you always do this or are you trying to protect your AK?

I try to raise 3xBB and prefer to riase 2.5xBB if it has the same effect. You might have gotten off your hand if you raised less preflop, and made 1/2 pot sized bet on the flop. So now you've only committed 500-600 chips, you have 1,400 left and can get away from the hand if re-raised.

Otherwise, if you plan to play AK like this, just push preflop.

[Rolen]

AK, AQ, AJ are all vastly overrated SNG hands. I have always had trouble with them, and my solution is thus : When the blinds are small (first two levels), I refuse to play any ace except AK. In the case of AK, I will always limp pre-flop. This gives me three advantages :

1) If someone raises behind me I have gained a lot of options, depending on my read I might push allin. If I think the player is 'sticky' (won't let go of a hand after he's raised with it) I will always push. This results in a lot of coinflips and the occasional AA/KK vs AK but maybe 3/10 times he'll have AQ, AJ, AT..Sometimes the odd 67o /images/graemlins/confused.gif

2) If we see a flop and I miss I can get away very cheaply.

3) Even the least observant players will not be expecting someone to have AK in an unraised pot.

Later on in the game, i'll just push. Simple as that. If someone wants to call me with AQ, fine.

[morgan180]

So what happens when you limp with a family pot of 4 or 5 people and you have a board of Axx which is what you were looking for and the guys you let limp in have two pair or better?? now you've turned a hand with +EV in to a big loser.

[Poker_God]

What can you do....the biggest argument in poker is how to play AK preflop and playing mid pockets.

[lastchance]

Well, you're both pretty shortstacked, and depending on the situation, I do like moving in here, and I don't see how you not raise when blinds are so high. I probably go broke by pushing the flop, and I think that's ok given the blinds.

[AtticusFinch]

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Or you can check when you're out of position with nothing.

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So if I check, what do I do whaen he bets, fold?


[/ QUOTE ]

Fold usually. Check raise sometimes, depending on reads. I love to check-raise raggedy flops with almost any two when heads up. There are millions of players who just cant resist taking a shot at a raggedy flop no matter what they have. Hell, I'm one of them. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

If he checks behind, cool, you get a freebie. If he reraises, fold. If he calls, you have outs.

EDIT: In this particular case the check raise is no good -- your stacks are too short. But keep it in your toolbox.

[curtains]

I think 4x the BB is usually unneccessary at this point. Raising to 2.5x or 3x the BB is okay, and it gives you more flexibility postflop. By this I mean that you can make a 50-60% of the pot probing bet, without committing a gigantic portion of your stack, while also getting the opponent to fold a decent amount of hands.