Strategy Question

[PocketJokers]

I am a devout SNG guy getting ready to play my first rebuy tournament....can anyone give me some advise particularly concerning the rebuy phase?

[mondo]

The main difference is the wild & crazy nature of play during the initial rebuy phase of the tournament. You MUST be willing to gamble, push your edges, and be prepared to rebuy several times..... your competitors will be scrambling to build their stacks. IMHO, you should strive for at least 4-5X the starting chips by the end of the rebuy period. Also, in MOST cases, I would avail myself of the optional add-on (I know Mason has advised against it, if you are among the chip leaders) My take on this is the add-ons and rebuys get thrown into the prize pool, and may result in an additional seat or cash prize being awarded. You will only be contributing a fraction of that additional place, but may end up WINNING it.....

I usually rebuy immediately, as I like to have chips at my disposal in the event of an early confrontation/monster hand.

The game will come back "down to earth" after the rebuy period, but the blinds will have reached a substantial figure by then (generally 10% of initial buy-in, per round), so you do not want to get caught "short-stacked" at the same time that the game regains a semblance of sanity.

Others may have more detailed or elaborate advice. These things seem to work for me..... at least it's a few things you can consider, and evaluate their usefulness over time.

YMMV /images/graemlins/cool.gif

peace, mondo

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
I am a devout SNG guy getting ready to play my first rebuy tournament....can anyone give me some advise particularly concerning the rebuy phase?

[/ QUOTE ]

My advise is to purchase your first rebuy the minute you sit down. While it is true that this is a "bad" buy to pay the same amount for your second 1000 chips as you did for your first, I feel that it increases your chances at a high finish, and I play every tourney to win - not to get good value on my money. (of course getting good value is winning for a poker player, but...)

During the rebuy period, look to raise your premium hands more than you would in a regular tourney. Other players are excited at an opportunity to take down a big pot and "catch" so will be more willing to call a big bet, or playback with inferior holdings. I think this is the most important thing to remember - Inferior holdings will be willing to risk more money. Of course the flipside of this is that you can be looser with your inferior holdings. 4 players All-in, and I have 78s... I might call. However, 4 players all=in, and I have 88, I fold. Know which hands prefer multiway action and be more willing to give action with these hands.

The rebuy tourney lets you both open up your game and exploit looser players. You have a whole lot less folding equity in any pot - you usually need to make a hand to win. One more thing, be aware of the cards that other players are pulling the trigger with.

Ok, my head is foggy, not sure if this is the best of posts, but it is a start.

CSC

[PocketJokers]

Im up to T12000 early, stay loose or tighten up?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
4 players All-in, and I have 78s... I might call. However, 4 players all=in, and I have 88, I fold. Know which hands prefer multiway action and be more willing to give action with these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is laughably wrong. 78s prefers multiway action when there is betting after the flop to drive implied odds

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4 players All-in, and I have 78s... I might call. However, 4 players all=in, and I have 88, I fold. Know which hands prefer multiway action and be more willing to give action with these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is laughably wrong. 78s prefers multiway action when there is betting after the flop to drive implied odds

[/ QUOTE ]

<sigh> here we go again. I wish I had one of those poker calculators... OK, 6% to a flush, 15% to a str8 - 21% of the time you've got better than trips (very nutty) Then you have overlapping overcards in most of these situations. AJ vs AK, vs JQ, vs TT. Now this is a rough example, any card over a 9 really hurts. But that is ok, I pretty much need to hit two-pair to have a chance anyway. 17.5% that I hit 2 pair, but that isn't so very nutty. Anyway, someone with access to a poker calculator should run some numbers. But suited connectors prefer heavy multiway action even PF. Hands that need later action (implied odds) are low PPs. Top pair hands like AK/AQ, or AA, KK, prefer 3-way action or heads up. There have been numerous discussions on the mid-hi limit forum of this nature. One such thread is "J8s:cap it up?" by StoneTMD (I think that is his name). I direct your further education to that forum. If you feel that I need to reevaluate, give me a more thought out response please.

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[MLG]

Perhaps what Sossman should have said, is that while they fair better in multi-way pott than heads-up pots preflop, they don't fair well enough to justify playing them without the implied post flop odds.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps what Sossman should have said, is that while they fair better in multi-way pott than heads-up pots preflop, they don't fair well enough to justify playing them without the implied post flop odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

But they get favorable pot odds. I agree that in a normal tourney I'd throw these hands away, but in a speed tourney or a rebuy tourney, I'd at least consider playing these hands in this situation (at least 4 others in the pot allin or very likely to call all-in). Run the numbers, man. This is like the infamous TT v. AKs thread but the reward is far greater (though so is the risk).

CSC

[MLG]

Ok numbers:
87s against JJ, AQo, 66, has 15% equity, you need 25%

87s against AKo, AJo, 66 has 27% equity provided your flush is good, if not you have 22%, so no good.

87s against AQo, J10s, 33, 22%, so again no good.

Unless you have the exact situation of two people with overcards (who share one of those overcards), and one other person with a PP below your connectors you don't have the odds.

Clearly its nothing like the 1010 hand where you have more than what you need against AK.

[LethalRose]

To clarify, needing 25% equity means you need 3 all ins before you until it is correct to call with 87s, correct?

[MLG]

meaning if there are 3 all-ins in front of you, that is the percentage of times you need to win the pot to make calling correct.

[CardSharpCook]

I agree, I wouldn't call if it was 4 way, it is good to know my grasp of the numbers is correct. OK, Now how about if it was against 4 all-ins as I recommend it should be played?

CSC

[PktAcesSoWht]

Is there some book that references the numbers and concepts that you are talking about? I would love to read more on this subject to better understand the hands that I can really work with in different scenarios. I have read the Tournament, and small stakes Sklansky books and the Harrington book as well.

[woodguy]

www.pokerstove.com (http://www.pokerstove.com)

Regards,
Woodguy

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
There have been numerous discussions on the mid-hi limit forum of this nature. One such thread is "J8s:cap it up?" by StoneTMD (I think that is his name). I direct your further education to that forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you for real? are you really quoting from the mid-high stakes 'limit' forum for this problem?

zaxx, is that you?

[MLG]

the only time you have 20% (which is what you need with 4 all-ins) is when two people have PP below your connectors, and there are only 3 combined overcards in the other two hands (like AK,KJ). All other occasions are below 20%. Even against like AK, QJ, 109 and A4 you are below 20. Still don't have enough.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There have been numerous discussions on the mid-hi limit forum of this nature. One such thread is "J8s:cap it up?" by StoneTMD (I think that is his name). I direct your further education to that forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you for real? are you really quoting from the mid-high stakes 'limit' forum for this problem?

zaxx, is that you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you for real? offering no thought but a snotty comeback? You are dangerously close to being put on ignore. Look to other forums to round out your game. You might be able to put substance behind your one line rebuttals.

CSC

[MLG]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
the only time you have 20% (which is what you need with 4 all-ins) is when two people have PP below your connectors, and there are only 3 combined overcards in the other two hands (like AK,KJ). All other occasions are below 20%. Even against like AK, QJ, 109 and A4 you are below 20. Still don't have enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly we are using different hands. I can input hands to get the numbers you get, but many hand selections give 87s a 22% equity. About to go back to try to use a range of hands. TY, woodsguy for giving me that link to pokerstove. I'm sure this tool will improve my game.

CSC

[MLG]

using p-stove, and putting in various combinations of hands. if there is any PP above your suited connectors you don't have enough equity. If you put 1-2 PPs below your suited connectors, if there are more than 3 overcards out, you don't have enough equity. If you but 4 different people on wide ranges of hands, pokerstove doesnt do so well spitting out results, otherwise id do it that way. Ive proven everything you want, and your still not gonna admit this was a small mistake? Its not a big deal, we're all wrong sometimes. suited connectors need implied post flop odds, thats just how it is.

edit: of course you can construct best case scenarios where you have upwards of 22% equity (say AK, QJ, A4o, 33) but the majority of the time you are in too much trouble here to make calling 4 all-ins correct.

[skoal2k4]

serious question...

how do you come up with these calcs? Is there a program you use? if so, which one?

[MLG]

pokerstove.com

[CardSharpCook]

I am thinking that I have over-valued suited connectors in a 5-handed all-in pot. Thanks for helping me patch this hole.

CSC

[skoal2k4]

thanks

[MLG]

heh, no problem. pokerstove is a fabulous tool, learn to love it.

[LethalRose]

Playing around I found this interesting..

Texas Hold'em, 658008 combinations tested.

Hand | 8c7c | AdAs | AhKs | QhQd | JhJd | ThTd |
------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Win | 142479 | 204926 | 18498 | 111867 | 94075 | 79258 |
Draw | 743 | 6905 | 6905 | 743 | 743 | 743 |
Lose | 514786 | 446177 | 632605 | 545398 | 563190 | 578007 |
------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Win% | 21.67% | 31.63% | 3.3% | 17.02% | 14.32% | 12.06% |
------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

If you're facing 4 All ins and in the blinds with 87s, it just might be correct to call. in this simulation all the other cards do not share a suit.


If all of the players share a suit with you, it looks like this.


Hand | 8c7c | AsAc | AhKc | QhQc | JhJc | TdTc |
------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Win | 103933 | 216287 | 21552 | 117697 | 98191 | 93051 |
Draw | 795 | 7297 | 7297 | 795 | 795 | 795 |
Lose | 553280 | 434424 | 629159 | 539516 | 559022 | 564162 |
------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Win% | 15.82% | 33.38% | 3.79% | 17.91% | 14.94% | 14.16% |
------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

For every hand that shares a suit with you you lose 1.17%

Is pokerstove better than Poker Calculator 1.1.4.1 (http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jraevaar/pokercalculator/index.php) ?