question about the backdoor

[When2Holdem]

okay so heres an example: you are in the bb. under the gun raises preflop and everyone calls (extreme example). you call the raise from the bb with

6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

flop comes

K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

sb checks and so do you in the bb. original preflop raiser bets and everyone calls around to you.

now with 15.5 big bets in the pot and it is only one small bet to call, with 29:1 pot odds it seems obvious to me to call to chase a backdoor straight or a backdoor flush and just see if you can pick up a good draw on the turn. am i correct to say to call there? if so, the question from me then is at what point does it become correct or incorrect in more realistic examples to chase the backdoor draw?

[einbert]

When the pot is >20 bets, you want to chase any two-card backdoor flush and any no-gap three-straight with no flush on board for one bet for sure.

SSHE has a system of calculating these types of draws. If you consider a BDFD as +1.5 outs, a three-straight as +1.5 outs, a one gap threestraight as +1.0 outs and a two gap threestraight as +0.5 outs then you can calculate whether you should continue or not (I think those numbers are correct).

In this example you have a total of three outs getting thirty to one, so a fold would be pretty bad no?

[When2Holdem]

yes, i agree, a fold would be very bad there. i just used an extreme example to illustrate my question clearly.

[ QUOTE ]
a BDFD as +1.5 outs, a three-straight as +1.5 outs, a one gap threestraight as +1.0 outs and a two gap threestraight as +0.5 outs

[/ QUOTE ]

... is exacly what i was asking. thanks for your help! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Siingo]

I do not remember if those numbers is correct but lets say they are. Then I still would not give the hand 3 outs becaus many of the strightouts is also counted in the flush draw. But you have atleast 2 outs.

And dont forget that you have implied odds too. When you looke if you have the odds then I am preaty sure that you can look at the odds from flop to river. Becaus if you do not improva on the turn to a draw then you will fold anyway. That give you 1:10.8 if we count it as 2 outs ( you have better odds because you have probably a litle more than 2 outs) And if you improve then you get much greater odds. But I am not 100% sure about looking at the oddsnumber from flop to river so if someone is sure about this then please confirm this or corect me!

Have fun!

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not remember if those numbers is correct but lets say they are. Then I still would not give the hand 3 outs becaus many of the strightouts is also counted in the flush draw. But you have atleast 2 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are only four cards that are counted as part of both back door draws, the 4 3 8 and 9 of spades. So I wouldn't discount them by a third, maybe count it down to 2.5 outs. Good point though, I hadn't considered this at all.

[ QUOTE ]
And dont forget that you have implied odds too. When you looke if you have the odds then I am preaty sure that you can look at the odds from flop to river. Becaus if you do not improva on the turn to a draw then you will fold anyway. That give you 1:10.8 if we count it as 2 outs ( you have better odds because you have probably a litle more than 2 outs) And if you improve then you get much greater odds. But I am not 100% sure about looking at the oddsnumber from flop to river so if someone is sure about this then please confirm this or corect me!

Have fun!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point too.